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<p>IIRC, there were often many reasons expressed for doing some
project. In particular, the project had to be attractive enough
to the people with the $s for them to send $s your way. So a
project was pitched to each funding source with emphasis on the
aspects of the project that would appeal to them.</p>
<p>In my experience, it was common to get a project going by getting
multiple sources of funding. E.g., for ARPA, an emphasis on the
researchy aspects, and for DCA an emphasis on operational
stability or cost. It was even possible to get some $s from
corporate clients, who were willing to pay to get the results of
all that government-funded work into their own networks. A
project team would have its members funded by different sources,
all working on the same thing (e.g., "the Internet")</p>
<p>I was never involved in the government politics, but I suspect
ARPA, DCA, et al did similar things when they went to the
Army/Navy/Congress, etc for funding. One body might be interested
in funding basic research; another might be interested in cutting
expenses, nailing down a pork barrel project in his/her realm,
etc.</p>
<p>/Jack Haverty</p>
<p> <br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/5/19 10:09 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAHxHggdtJV4oWx3n5mncpOC1g_Y4m0qmUBJchfB5-3p9P1fb7Q@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">John, i had the same impression - that there was
demand for new computing equipment and ARPA wanted the research
groups to be able to share resources as well as sharing code and
research results freely.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>vint</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 10:50
PM John Day <<a href="mailto:jeanjour@comcast.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">jeanjour@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">Okay, thanks for that
clarification. Somewhere I had been told that the reason for
resource sharing was so ARPA didn’t have to buy lots of
computing equipment for multiple sites, but they could share
it. And of course that included collaboration as well.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If collaboration of people was one of the main goals,
why was USING turned off? That seemed to be a hot bed of
collaboration with great potential.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Take care,</div>
<div>John<br>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jul 5, 2019, at 20:48, Steve Crocker <<a
href="mailto:steve@shinkuro.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">steve@shinkuro.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="gmail-m_-328822360753953898Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir="auto">Your characterization of the Arpanet
as focused on lowering the cost of research is off
the mark. It was motivated by the desire to
increase the collaboration and sharing of
resources. “Resources” included people resources
as well as computational resources.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Steve<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Steve<br>
<div><br>
<div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
On Jul 5, 2019, at 8:37 PM, John Day <<a
href="mailto:jeanjour@comcast.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">jeanjour@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Thanks Steve for that. Just
to add.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Keep in mind computing was still
very small (there was only one or two
computer conferences a year, when did
NCC split into Fall and Spring Joint?)
The networking field was even smaller.
Publishing a paper was considerably
more work and the criteria
considerably higher than they are now.
A lot of work and a lot of discussing
went on that never appeared in
publications or even in RFCs or other
samizdat circulations. (I have all
sorts of papers from this period that
were not part of any even informal
publication series.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In 1968, Dykstra published his
paper on THE and layered OSs. And it
was all the buzz. Most, if not all,
of the NWG were OS guys. You needed OS
guys to figure out how to introduce
the IMP-Host protocol and then the
Host-Host on top of that in the OS. By
1970, layer diagrams of IMP-Host,
Host-Host(NCP), (Telnet, DTP), FTP,
RJE were common. (DTP was Data
Transfer Protocol, the part of FTP
that did the actual transfer.)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>By 72/3, the layers of Physical,
Data Link, Network, Transport from
CYCLADES were pretty common as well as
a general characterization that wasn’t
specific to a given network. INWG
began in 72 after ICCC ’72 and these
layers were common by then. There is
also strong evidence that because
CYCLADES was building a network to do
research on networks (very different
from what the ARPNET was)*, they had
figured out a lot more about layers
than most of us knew at the time.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>John</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>*Remember the ARPANET was built to
lower the cost of research but not
really to do research on networks.
That could be a side benefit and a lot
of us thought there was a lot to do,
but it wasn’t ARPAs main focus for the
ARPANET. Once it was built, ARPA
considered the network part done! (At
least for awhile they did.) BBN
couldn’t take the net whenever they
wanted to do some experiment. The
ARPANET was in a fairly real sense, a
production network to support ARPA
research.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jul 5, 2019, at 17:35,
Steve Crocker <<a
href="mailto:steve@shinkuro.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">steve@shinkuro.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="gmail-m_-328822360753953898Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="auto">Layering was
part of the earliest
discussions we had in
1968-69.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"
class="gmail_attr">On Fri,
Jul 5, 2019 at 5:34 PM
Craig Partridge <<a
href="mailto:craig@tereschau.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">craig@tereschau.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px
solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Related but
not quite on target.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The
hourglass/margarita
glass is a
representation of
layering. And back in
1988 I tried to figure
out the origins of the
layered model for a
collection of
networking papers I
edited. At the time,
the best answer I
found was that
layering, from a
networking
perspective,
originated with a
paper by Davidson et
al. on the ARPANET
TELNET protocol from
the DATACOM conference
in 1977. It portrays
layering as a fan, in
which different
protocols layer on
each other as needed.
But it clearly
articulates the notion
of layering and how
layers interact. (And
there's a narrow
window between the
1977 paper and the
Cerf/Kahn 1974 paper
on TCP/IP, which
presumably would have
mentioned layering if
the concept was in
wide use).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Craig</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"
class="gmail_attr">On
Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at
8:10 AM Andrew Russell
<<a
href="mailto:arussell@arussell.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">arussell@arussell.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px
0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px
solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="overflow-wrap:
break-word;">Hi
everyone -
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You might have
seen the CACM
featured an
article in the
most recent issue
“On the Hourglass
Model” - <a
href="https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2019/7/237714-on-the-hourglass-model/fulltext"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2019/7/237714-on-the-hourglass-model/fulltext</a>. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It’s not a
history paper, but
it raised a
history-related
question for me.
As far as I know
the visual
representation in
question started
with a drawing of
a margarita glass
in 1979, in the
context of an OSI
committee meeting
and the 7-layer
model. I
reproduced the
image on page 214
of my book “Open
Standards and the
Digital Age” -
it’s visible to me
here: </div>
<div><a
href="https://books.google.com/books?id=jqroAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA214&lpg=PA214"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://books.google.com/books?id=jqroAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA214&lpg=PA214</a>.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My question for
the list has 2
parts:</div>
<div>1) when/where
did the margarita
glass turn into an
hourglass?</div>
<div>2) when/where
did the TCP/IP
community borrow
it from the OSI
community? (I’m
assuming this is
how it happened,
would be very
interested in
evidence or
recollections to
the contrary)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My hunch,
without doing a
fresh round of
research, is that
I should look
first to papers by
David Clark and
co-authors in the
1980s to answer a
third question,
which is how this
illustrated
concept morphed
into a “Theorem”
(as the CACM essay
puts it). But
that’s just a
hunch, and I’d
really appreciate
pointers or
recollections.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Andy</div>
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