<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="">802.3 coax Ethernet has limits on the lengths of the cables, the delay through repeaters, and the number of repeaters that ensure overall network latency can’t exceed</span><span class=""> 232 bits. When collisions occur, colliding nodes switch from sending data to sending a jam signal that fills the slot - 512 bit times - and then do collision recovery. Late collisions (after the 232 bit time latency) can occur, but did so rarely. They’re treated as errors and left to higher level protocols to sort out. </span>Collisions are detected by a voltage drop on the cable that everyone sees, but if somebody misses it they should see the jam signal. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It’s a pretty reliable system, but collision-free full duplex is better. Full duplex switches permit multiple packets to traverse the switch at the same time as long as they have different destinations, and buffer those with the same destination that overlap. And switches allow operators to assign priorities so that more important bits have a fast lane, just as they did on the IBM Token Ring. <br class=""><div class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 14, 2019, at 10:15 PM, Gordon Peterson <<a href="mailto:gep2@terabites.com" class="">gep2@terabites.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/14/2019 6:12 PM, Richard Bennett
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:793A4A57-0497-42DB-8A29-AB8B9356E153@bennett.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
In principle, Ethernet collisions only occurred at during the
first few bytes of the frame - the collision window - so it didn’t
take long to backoff and recover. But the advent of full duplex in
10BASE-T eliminated collisions. <br class="">
</blockquote>
It depends on how long the message is, and how it's routed. The end
of the message can be seen earlier in some places than in others,
depending on propagation delays and different routings. And some
collisions may be seen by some network nodes, and not by others.<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:793A4A57-0497-42DB-8A29-AB8B9356E153@bennett.com" class="">
<div class="">We put positive acknowledgment in Wi-Fi because we
predicted one undetected collision per 100 frames or so, owing
to the lack of a reliable collision indicator. That appears to
have been the right choice. <br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
In the case of ARCnet, any given cable is only driven from one end
at any given time. So you never get a "collision" of two data
packets colliding on the same cable coming from different ends.<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:793A4A57-0497-42DB-8A29-AB8B9356E153@bennett.com" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jun 14, 2019, at 5:04 PM, Gordon Peterson
<<a href="mailto:gep2@terabites.com" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">gep2@terabites.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
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charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/14/2019 4:53 PM,
Richard Bennett wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:687DADC4-D410-483A-A2DD-88009193329F@bennett.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
The fact that ARCnet was essentially a plug-and-play
system for converting 3270 terminal clusters - wire
and all - into PC clusters was a huge selling point
for departmental computing in the mid ‘80s and beyond.
With a Novell file & print server, 3270 emulation
and file transfer on your PCs, a shared laser printer
and a 3270 LAN gateway you were good to go.</blockquote>
Sure! And that you could just add a hub in your
department, and the wire that used to carry the traffic
from your (big/expensive) 3270 cluster controller to
just ONE terminal could now support a BUNCH of
departmental computers! As many as you needed! All
able to talk together.<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:687DADC4-D410-483A-A2DD-88009193329F@bennett.com" class="">
<div class="">Classic Ethernet’s biggest flaw was its
lack of the star topology used for office power,
phones, and 3270s. </div>
</blockquote>
Basically, ALL classical distribution systems use
"interconnected stars" topologies. Water, electricity,
storm sewers, food and product distribution, (yes)
telephones, just about everything. And with linear-bus
Ethernet, adding a new drop ANYWHERE on the bus
disrupted messages and electrical signals for the ENTIRE
bus, until everything re-stabilized. A map tack or
paperclip could short out the whole linear bus, and it
could take a LONG time to figure out where the problem
was, and get it going again.<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:687DADC4-D410-483A-A2DD-88009193329F@bennett.com" class="">
<div class="">Multi-port transceivers for Cheapernet
remedied this, but they were very pricey before
10BASE-T.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Metcalfe & crew believed active hubs
would be bottlenecks, but that idea never made much
sense; the active hub just needs to be as fast as
each individual node.</div>
</blockquote><p class="">It just needs to be as fast as the cable,
the total bit rate at the active hub is the same. And
in ARCnet, any given cable is only carrying a single
signal in one direction at any given time, and
therefore you don't really have electrical signal
collisions, and don't have any problems with
reflections from taps or the ends of a cable.</p><p class="">More important, with ARCnet the originating
RIM knows within about 5-10 microseconds of the end of
a transmission whether the transmission was received
(fully, correctly and completely) by the destination
RIM... before the next packet is prepared and sent.
With Ethernet, you have to wait (maybe a LONG time)
until higher-level protocols don't receive an expected
result (if any). Packet collisions (if any) can occur
elsewhere in an Ethernet network, and may not be seen
by the sender (since the collision elsewhere might
occur after the sender has stopped sending).</p><p class="">ARCnet has the receiving node acknowledging
(IMMEDIATELY) whether the received packet was
received, fully buffered at the receiving end, with
correct parity for each byte received, the correct CRC
for the entire packet, and the correct number of bytes
expected. And the originating RIM gets this "positive
ACK" before it sends another queued packet, or passes
the "invitation to transmit" token on to the next node
in the polling list. So if your higher-level protocol
is set so that ANY packet can be safely and simply
re-transmitted (as The ARC System's protocols allowed)
in case of ANY doubt, it makes it really easy to make
a VERY robust and error-tolerant network architecture.<br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:687DADC4-D410-483A-A2DD-88009193329F@bennett.com" class="">
<div class="">RB </div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jun 14, 2019, at 2:30 PM,
Gordon Peterson <<a href="mailto:gep2@terabites.com" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">gep2@terabites.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
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On 6/14/2019 3:02 PM, Clem Cole wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAC20D2ONJvKMPmev3S_+mEV1KGabgo3xXspyTxyYujqUj3g4ig@mail.gmail.com" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
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text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
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auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
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<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: arial, helvetica,
sans-serif;"><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 3:52 PM Richard
Bennett <<a href="mailto:richard@bennett.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">richard@bennett.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
border-left-width: 1px;
border-left-style: solid;
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="overflow-wrap:
break-word;" class="">The PARC
Ethernet that immediately preceded
Blue Book was 2.94 Mbps, not 3. The
difference is greater than the
bandwidth of ARPANET at the time. I
think an even earlier prototype was
1 Mbps.</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;">Right... in
both cases. One of the guys (Roger
Bates IIRC), even calculated the
number of bit of storage in the PARC
network >>wires<< at one
point.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">Bob Metcalfe's
original "Ether"net was a wired version of
the University of Hawaii's "Project Aloha",
which was a radio-broadcast network...</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration: none;" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAC20D2ONJvKMPmev3S_+mEV1KGabgo3xXspyTxyYujqUj3g4ig@mail.gmail.com" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
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auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration: none;" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
border-left-width: 1px;
border-left-style: solid;
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="overflow-wrap:
break-word;" class="">These were
both thin coax systems as thick net
was a Blue Book
designed-by-committee monstrosity
with poor noise modeling.</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family: arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;">Amen....</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote><p style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration: none;" class="">Bob
Metcalfe told me he was a big fan of the
linear bus, even with the problems and
vulnerabilities I pointed out (including
ringing back from the taps, need to
terminate ends, ability to take the whole
bus down with a pin or paperclip, etc etc).
I told him that an "interconnected stars"
topology was a lot better, but he
persisted.... sigh...</p><p style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration: none;" class="">I think
it's worth noting that basically nobody
still runs thick-wire linear bus Ethernet,
and Ethernet didn't really get very
successful until they finally adopted the
ARCnet-style "interconnected stars" cabling
topology based on hubs.<br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAC20D2ONJvKMPmev3S_+mEV1KGabgo3xXspyTxyYujqUj3g4ig@mail.gmail.com" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
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normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
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white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration: none;" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family: arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;">A question
for you: Was the ARCnet you are
describing from Datapoint, the same
technology as the 75 ohm coax ARCnet
that was popular with Novell
networks in the mid to late 1980s? <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">Actually it was
93 ohm, RG-62U, BNC connectors, but yes,
their "RX-NET" was actually the exact same
thing as Datapoint's ARCnet. They
(Datapoint ARC System and Novell RX-NET
systems) coexisted nicely on the same ARCnet
cable system, too. ;-) The wires and
cabling and connectors were the same as IBM
had used for their 2260 (and 3270 and
following) terminals... so most big
companies with such networks in place
already were cabled for ARCnet. ;-)
ARCnet is actually very tolerant, I'm told
it will even run happily over coat-hanger
wire. ;-)</span><br style="caret-color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration: none;" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAC20D2ONJvKMPmev3S_+mEV1KGabgo3xXspyTxyYujqUj3g4ig@mail.gmail.com" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
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white-space: normal; widows: auto;
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auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration: none;" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family: arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;">I remember
it was originally less costly than
the 'Blue Book' ethernet per port
until NS and group came up with
'CheaperNet' (running it across 50
ohm wire thin wire and using BNC
connectors).</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">The bigger
advantages of ARCnet over Ethernet have to
do with low-level protocols, fault
tolerance, error recovery, electrical
robustness, and a lot more.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration: none;" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAC20D2ONJvKMPmev3S_+mEV1KGabgo3xXspyTxyYujqUj3g4ig@mail.gmail.com" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
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auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
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<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
border-left-width: 1px;
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border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="overflow-wrap:
break-word;" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">RB</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jun 14, 2019,
at 6:43 AM, Noel Chiappa
<<a href="mailto:jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="gmail-m_-3227224952991069579Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">From: Jorge
Amodio<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Thank you so
much for your detailed
response<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
Indeed, it was a fantastic
and fascinating glimpse
into a too-little-known<br class="">
corner of computing
history.<br class="">
<br class="">
For those who would like
to know more, in addition
to online sources, I can<br class="">
recommend "Datapoint: The
Lost Story of the Texans
Who Invented the Personal<br class="">
Computer Revolution", by
Lamont Wood. (I'm not sure
if those who were there,<br class="">
like Mr. Peterson, would
consider it accurate, but
it seemed to be to be
quite<br class="">
good.)<br class="">
<br class="">
Typical nugget: the Intel
8008 was not a descendant
of the Intel 4004<br class="">
(although the production
chips did use technology
developed for the 4004),
as<br class="">
commonly thought at one
point; rather, it was
developed for Datapoint<br class="">
(although they wound up
building their own CPU out
of discrete components).<br class="">
The 8008 developed into
the 8080, and then the
8086... and I expect many
of us<br class="">
are reading this on its
descendants.<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">I'll follow up
on a private message so
I don't get the rest of
the list<br class="">
bored with details.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
Bored? Never! :-)<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On Thu, Jun
13, 2019 at 6:18 PM
Gordon Peterson <<a href="mailto:gep2@terabites.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">gep2@terabites.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">(...and, at
the time, Ethernet....
which wasn't a
released product
yet...<br class="">
was running at just 2
megabits<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
Minor nit - 3.<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">"Oh, Gordon,"
my colleagues told me.
"It's a good system,
but you're<br class="">
crazy... big
businesses will never
give up their
mainframes and run
their<br class="">
processing on networks
of little computers."<br class="">
I grinned at them and
replied, "You just
WATCH!" :-)<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
I suspect many people on
this list have had similar
experiences! (In my case,<br class="">
circa mid-80s, telling my
now-wife that one day
everyone would have<br class="">
email... :-)<br class="">
<br class="">
It would be interesting to
collect stories about when
we got glimpses of the<br class="">
future. I am particularly
thinking of Craig's story
about Swedish train<br class="">
timetables; my equivalent
was going home to Bermuda
at one point and seeing<br class="">
URL's painted on
commercial vehicles.<br class="">
<br class="">
Noel<br class="">
_______<br class="">
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</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start;
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text-transform: none;
white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px;" class="">
<div style="overflow-wrap:
break-word;" class="">—<br class="">
<div style="overflow-wrap:
break-word;" class="">Richard
Bennett<br class="">
<a href="http://hightechforum.org/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">High Tech Forum</a> Founder</div>
<div style="overflow-wrap:
break-word;" class="">Ethernet
& Wi-Fi standards
co-creator</div>
<div style="overflow-wrap:
break-word;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="overflow-wrap:
break-word;" class="">Internet
Policy Consultant</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
_______<br class="">
internet-history mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">internet-history@postel.org</a><br class="">
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assistance.<br class="">
</blockquote>
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