<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">In principle, Ethernet collisions only occurred at during the first few bytes of the frame - the collision window - so it didn’t take long to backoff and recover. But the advent of full duplex in 10BASE-T eliminated collisions. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We put positive acknowledgment in Wi-Fi because we predicted one undetected collision per 100 frames or so, owing to the lack of a reliable collision indicator. That appears to have been the right choice. <br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 14, 2019, at 5:04 PM, Gordon Peterson <<a href="mailto:gep2@terabites.com" class="">gep2@terabites.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/14/2019 4:53 PM, Richard Bennett
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:687DADC4-D410-483A-A2DD-88009193329F@bennett.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
The fact that ARCnet was essentially a plug-and-play system for
converting 3270 terminal clusters - wire and all - into PC
clusters was a huge selling point for departmental computing in
the mid ‘80s and beyond. With a Novell file & print server,
3270 emulation and file transfer on your PCs, a shared laser
printer and a 3270 LAN gateway you were good to go.</blockquote>
Sure! And that you could just add a hub in your department, and the
wire that used to carry the traffic from your (big/expensive) 3270
cluster controller to just ONE terminal could now support a BUNCH of
departmental computers! As many as you needed! All able to talk
together.<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:687DADC4-D410-483A-A2DD-88009193329F@bennett.com" class="">
<div class="">Classic Ethernet’s biggest flaw was its lack of the
star topology used for office power, phones, and 3270s. </div>
</blockquote>
Basically, ALL classical distribution systems use "interconnected
stars" topologies. Water, electricity, storm sewers, food and
product distribution, (yes) telephones, just about everything. And
with linear-bus Ethernet, adding a new drop ANYWHERE on the bus
disrupted messages and electrical signals for the ENTIRE bus, until
everything re-stabilized. A map tack or paperclip could short out
the whole linear bus, and it could take a LONG time to figure out
where the problem was, and get it going again.<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:687DADC4-D410-483A-A2DD-88009193329F@bennett.com" class="">
<div class="">Multi-port transceivers for Cheapernet remedied
this, but they were very pricey before 10BASE-T.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Metcalfe & crew believed active hubs would be
bottlenecks, but that idea never made much sense; the active hub
just needs to be as fast as each individual node.</div>
</blockquote><p class="">It just needs to be as fast as the cable, the total bit rate at
the active hub is the same. And in ARCnet, any given cable is
only carrying a single signal in one direction at any given time,
and therefore you don't really have electrical signal collisions,
and don't have any problems with reflections from taps or the ends
of a cable.</p><p class="">More important, with ARCnet the originating RIM knows within
about 5-10 microseconds of the end of a transmission whether the
transmission was received (fully, correctly and completely) by the
destination RIM... before the next packet is prepared and sent.
With Ethernet, you have to wait (maybe a LONG time) until
higher-level protocols don't receive an expected result (if any).
Packet collisions (if any) can occur elsewhere in an Ethernet
network, and may not be seen by the sender (since the collision
elsewhere might occur after the sender has stopped sending).</p><p class="">ARCnet has the receiving node acknowledging (IMMEDIATELY) whether
the received packet was received, fully buffered at the receiving
end, with correct parity for each byte received, the correct CRC
for the entire packet, and the correct number of bytes expected.
And the originating RIM gets this "positive ACK" before it sends
another queued packet, or passes the "invitation to transmit"
token on to the next node in the polling list. So if your
higher-level protocol is set so that ANY packet can be safely and
simply re-transmitted (as The ARC System's protocols allowed) in
case of ANY doubt, it makes it really easy to make a VERY robust
and error-tolerant network architecture.<br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:687DADC4-D410-483A-A2DD-88009193329F@bennett.com" class="">
<div class="">RB </div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jun 14, 2019, at 2:30 PM, Gordon Peterson
<<a href="mailto:gep2@terabites.com" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">gep2@terabites.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
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0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration:
none;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
On 6/14/2019 3:02 PM, Clem Cole wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAC20D2ONJvKMPmev3S_+mEV1KGabgo3xXspyTxyYujqUj3g4ig@mail.gmail.com" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
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rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:
arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 14,
2019 at 3:52 PM Richard Bennett <<a href="mailto:richard@bennett.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">richard@bennett.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px
0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px;
border-left-style: solid; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">The
PARC Ethernet that immediately preceded Blue
Book was 2.94 Mbps, not 3. The difference is
greater than the bandwidth of ARPANET at the
time. I think an even earlier prototype was 1
Mbps.</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:
arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Right... in both
cases. One of the guys (Roger Bates IIRC),
even calculated the number of bit of storage in
the PARC network >>wires<< at one
point.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration:
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Bob
Metcalfe's original "Ether"net was a wired version of
the University of Hawaii's "Project Aloha", which was a
radio-broadcast network...</span><br style="caret-color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAC20D2ONJvKMPmev3S_+mEV1KGabgo3xXspyTxyYujqUj3g4ig@mail.gmail.com" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px
0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px;
border-left-style: solid; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">These
were both thin coax systems as thick net was a
Blue Book designed-by-committee monstrosity with
poor noise modeling.</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family: arial, helvetica,
sans-serif;">Amen....</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote><p style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration:
none;" class="">Bob Metcalfe told me he was a big fan of
the linear bus, even with the problems and
vulnerabilities I pointed out (including ringing back
from the taps, need to terminate ends, ability to take
the whole bus down with a pin or paperclip, etc etc). I
told him that an "interconnected stars" topology was a
lot better, but he persisted.... sigh...</p><p style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration:
none;" class="">I think it's worth noting that basically
nobody still runs thick-wire linear bus Ethernet, and
Ethernet didn't really get very successful until they
finally adopted the ARCnet-style "interconnected stars"
cabling topology based on hubs.<br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAC20D2ONJvKMPmev3S_+mEV1KGabgo3xXspyTxyYujqUj3g4ig@mail.gmail.com" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family: arial, helvetica,
sans-serif;">A question for you: Was the ARCnet
you are describing from Datapoint, the same
technology as the 75 ohm coax ARCnet that was
popular with Novell networks in the mid to late
1980s? <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration:
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Actually
it was 93 ohm, RG-62U, BNC connectors, but yes, their
"RX-NET" was actually the exact same thing as
Datapoint's ARCnet. They (Datapoint ARC System and
Novell RX-NET systems) coexisted nicely on the same
ARCnet cable system, too. ;-) The wires and cabling
and connectors were the same as IBM had used for their
2260 (and 3270 and following) terminals... so most big
companies with such networks in place already were
cabled for ARCnet. ;-) ARCnet is actually very
tolerant, I'm told it will even run happily over
coat-hanger wire. ;-)</span><br style="caret-color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAC20D2ONJvKMPmev3S_+mEV1KGabgo3xXspyTxyYujqUj3g4ig@mail.gmail.com" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family: arial, helvetica,
sans-serif;">I remember it was originally less
costly than the 'Blue Book' ethernet per port
until NS and group came up with 'CheaperNet'
(running it across 50 ohm wire thin wire and
using BNC connectors).</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration:
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">The
bigger advantages of ARCnet over Ethernet have to do
with low-level protocols, fault tolerance, error
recovery, electrical robustness, and a lot more.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration:
none;" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAC20D2ONJvKMPmev3S_+mEV1KGabgo3xXspyTxyYujqUj3g4ig@mail.gmail.com" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px
0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px;
border-left-style: solid; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">RB</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jun 14, 2019, at 6:43 AM,
Noel Chiappa <<a href="mailto:jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="gmail-m_-3227224952991069579Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">From:
Jorge Amodio<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Thank
you so much for your detailed
response<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
Indeed, it was a fantastic and
fascinating glimpse into a
too-little-known<br class="">
corner of computing history.<br class="">
<br class="">
For those who would like to know more,
in addition to online sources, I can<br class="">
recommend "Datapoint: The Lost Story
of the Texans Who Invented the
Personal<br class="">
Computer Revolution", by Lamont Wood.
(I'm not sure if those who were there,<br class="">
like Mr. Peterson, would consider it
accurate, but it seemed to be to be
quite<br class="">
good.)<br class="">
<br class="">
Typical nugget: the Intel 8008 was not
a descendant of the Intel 4004<br class="">
(although the production chips did use
technology developed for the 4004), as<br class="">
commonly thought at one point; rather,
it was developed for Datapoint<br class="">
(although they wound up building their
own CPU out of discrete components).<br class="">
The 8008 developed into the 8080, and
then the 8086... and I expect many of
us<br class="">
are reading this on its descendants.<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">I'll
follow up on a private message so I
don't get the rest of the list<br class="">
bored with details.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
Bored? Never! :-)<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On
Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 6:18 PM
Gordon Peterson <<a href="mailto:gep2@terabites.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">gep2@terabites.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">(...and,
at the time, Ethernet.... which
wasn't a released product yet...<br class="">
was running at just 2 megabits<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
Minor nit - 3.<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">"Oh,
Gordon," my colleagues told me.
"It's a good system, but you're<br class="">
crazy... big businesses will never
give up their mainframes and run
their<br class="">
processing on networks of little
computers."<br class="">
I grinned at them and replied,
"You just WATCH!" :-)<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
I suspect many people on this list
have had similar experiences! (In my
case,<br class="">
circa mid-80s, telling my now-wife
that one day everyone would have<br class="">
email... :-)<br class="">
<br class="">
It would be interesting to collect
stories about when we got glimpses of
the<br class="">
future. I am particularly thinking of
Craig's story about Swedish train<br class="">
timetables; my equivalent was going
home to Bermuda at one point and
seeing<br class="">
URL's painted on commercial vehicles.<br class="">
<br class="">
Noel<br class="">
_______<br class="">
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Contact<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">list-owner@postel.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>for
assistance.<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px;" class="">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">—<br class="">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">Richard Bennett<br class="">
<a href="http://hightechforum.org/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">High
Tech Forum</a> Founder</div>
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">Ethernet & Wi-Fi
standards co-creator</div>
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">Internet Policy Consultant</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
_______<br class="">
internet-history mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">internet-history@postel.org</a><br class="">
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Contact<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">list-owner@postel.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>for
assistance.<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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max-height: 0px; overflow: hidden;" class=""><font class="" size="1" color="#ffffff">ᐧ</font></div>
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<td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;" class=""><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true"><img src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true" width="46" height="29"></a></td>
<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color:
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<br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">—<br class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Richard
Bennett<br class="">
<a href="http://hightechforum.org/" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">High Tech Forum</a> Founder</div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Ethernet
& Wi-Fi standards co-creator</div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Internet
Policy Consultant</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=""><div class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">—<br class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Richard Bennett<br class=""><a href="http://hightechforum.org" class="">High Tech Forum</a> Founder</div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator</div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Internet Policy Consultant</div></div></div>
</div>
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