<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Here’s a link to a story on the lawsuit:<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://teleread.org/2017/12/19/the-internet-archives-openlibrary-project-violates-copyright-the-authors-guild-warns/" class="">https://teleread.org/2017/12/19/the-internet-archives-openlibrary-project-violates-copyright-the-authors-guild-warns/</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">RB<br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 25, 2019, at 11:55 AM, Michael Greenwald <<a href="mailto:mbgreen@seas.upenn.edu" class="">mbgreen@seas.upenn.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">On 2019-02-25 10:30, Richard Bennett wrote:</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">I seem to recall some lawsuits over the Internet Archive’s<br class="">“lending library” system. It violates copyright law, of course.<br class=""></blockquote><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Probably too off-topic, so feel free to ignore:</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I thought the Internet Archive only scans books that are in the public domain?</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">RB<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On Feb 25, 2019, at 10:33 AM, John Day <<a href="mailto:jeanjour@comcast.net" class="">jeanjour@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br class="">Not really related to this discussion. The head of the Internet<br class="">Archive and the head of Boston Public Library were on Boston Public<br class="">Radio last week. They were announcing a cooperation where you can<br class="">check-out material in the BPL collection through the Internet<br class="">Archive and only one person has access to the material at a time.<br class="">Just like it was checked out. What I didn’t hear them talk about<br class="">was when the ‘book’ or whatever is returned, how is it they<br class="">ensure the borrower doesn’t still have a copy?<br class="">Any thoughts?<br class="">John<br class="">On Feb 25, 2019, at 11:14, Andrew G. Malis <<a href="mailto:agmalis@gmail.com" class="">agmalis@gmail.com</a>><br class="">wrote:<br class="">Jack,<br class="">In addition to the Internet Archive (already mentioned), you should<br class="">also check out<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://decentralizedweb.net/" class="">https://decentralizedweb.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[1] .<br class="">Cheers,<br class="">Andy<br class="">On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 9:58 PM Jack Haverty <<a href="mailto:jack@3kitty.org" class="">jack@3kitty.org</a>><br class="">wrote:<br class="">True, but I think a first step is a persistent crowd-sourced public<br class="">store, which is what I described. Perhaps "restricted" material<br class="">could be simply stored encrypted, and thus visible in search engines<br class="">and accessible only to people with the appropriate key, or maybe<br class="">"permission" credentials. Volunteers might be reluctant to<br class="">participate if that became too common.<br class="">There's also other considerations, e.g., tracking the provenance of<br class="">an item, so you can tell whether or not something is authentic,<br class="">where it came from, when it was created, etc. Probably many more<br class="">such things to ponder.<br class="">IMHO those kinds of capabilities could be add-ons to a persistent<br class="">store as meta-data mechanisms, possibly many of them all<br class="">independent, associating their metadata with items in the warehouse<br class="">by some kind of unique ID - perhaps just a large-enough hash of each<br class="">of the contents. They could be added as someone gets interested in<br class="">doing so.<br class="">Anybody could build a metadata mechanism "on top of" the persistent<br class="">store. Some might be built by volunteers and free, others by<br class="">corporations and for sale. This is almost what the Web is, except<br class="">that the Web store isn't persistent - things on the Web disappear<br class="">without warning. Someone might put a web site "in front of" the<br class="">persistent store and use today's web tools pretty much as is to<br class="">access materials stored there.<br class="">/Jack<br class="">On 2/24/19 4:07 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:<br class="">not all data that we might want to preserve needs to be publicly<br class="">accessible.<br class="">v<br class="">On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 6:23 PM Jack Haverty <<a href="mailto:jack@3kitty.org" class="">jack@3kitty.org</a>><br class="">wrote:<br class="">I don't know much about SOLID, but it appears to be addressing the<br class="">problem of handling individuals' personal private data, and<br class="">controlling who can access it. What I described was somewhat of<br class="">the inverse - making data public, survivable, and accessible to<br class="">everyone. But maybe there's overlap in any implementation.<br class="">Certainly there are lots of pieces already in place somewhere, as<br class="">evidenced by the success of viruses, pirated videos, and the like.<br class="">The Internet has made possible new sorts of social mechanisms. What<br class="">I'm imagining is more like applying Internet-style "crowd-funding"<br class="">to the problem of a historical archive, where people contribute<br class="">cycles and bytes rather than euros and dollars.<br class="">That wasn't possible pre-Internet, but it is now. Thinking<br class="">"outside the box" is a lot easier. The Internet made the box much<br class="">bigger....<br class="">/Jack<br class="">On 2/24/19 2:45 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:<br class="">isn't that what SOLID is supposed to do?<br class="">v<br class="">On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 1:47 PM Jack Haverty <<a href="mailto:jack@3kitty.org" class="">jack@3kitty.org</a>><br class="">wrote:<br class="">[Changed the subject line]<br class="">I read the recent messages on the forum just before going to sleep,<br class="">and<br class="">then I had a dream....literally.<br class="">There's a whole different perspective on Internet History that might<br class="">be<br class="">very revealing. Instead of questions like "Who built the<br class="">Internet?",<br class="">perhaps also ask "Who paid for the Internet?" If historians<br class="">"followed<br class="">the money" like many other investigators, they might find some<br class="">interesting insights. I didn't realize until today that the IETF is<br class="">funded by ... Me! Through my payments for my .org domain, maybe by<br class="">now<br class="">I've paid for an urn or two of coffee at an IETF meeting.<br class="">But my dream was of how to fund some kind of Internet repository of<br class="">historical materials, not subject to the management whims or<br class="">financial<br class="">success of an "institution". My dream reminded me that such<br class="">mechanisms<br class="">already exist, have been running at scale for years, are<br class="">self-funded,<br class="">and seem essentially impossible to excise even when governments or<br class="">industry giants try to do so.<br class="">My dream is of a Benevolent BotNet (apologies to my alma mater,<br class="">BBN).<br class="">Instead of hosting and propagating malware and viruses, or stealing<br class="">computer cycle to mine cryptocurrency, the BBN would simply store,<br class="">replicate, and distribute historical materials on demand. No doubt<br class="">Richard's comment on Pirate Bay triggered this part of the dream.<br class="">Such technology obviously exists, and survives despite serious<br class="">efforts<br class="">to eradicate it. Where the Internet was coopted for evil, perhaps<br class="">the<br class="">evil could be coopted for good?<br class="">Maybe even better would be a mechanism that didn't rely on theft and<br class="">subterfuge at all. Perhaps something akin to the SETI mechanisms,<br class="">where<br class="">people voluntarily donate their computer resources to analyze radio<br class="">signals, by simply downloading a piece of code and allowing it to<br class="">run on<br class="">their computers.<br class="">So, my dream was that some new software appears, which is freely<br class="">downloaded by thousands or millions of people around the world,<br class="">which<br class="">uses a few GB of the disk on their machines, and stores historical<br class="">material in a redundant, highly survivable, persistent, distrubuted<br class="">historical warehouse. One, or many, search engines (go Google!,<br class="">Bing!,<br class="">DuckDuckGo!) would allow people to find material in the warehouse.<br class="">Anyone could contribute material to the historical archive by simply<br class="">placing a copy into the disk area of their machine that they've<br class="">shared,<br class="">from where it would be automatically distributed and replicated.<br class="">Perhaps this is one or more apps that can be downloaded. Or perhaps<br class="">a<br class="">plug in or extension to popular browsers. Or maybe an addition to<br class="">existing mechanisms like BitTorrent. Much of the code already<br class="">exists,<br class="">as evidenced by the millions of computers unwittingly participating<br class="">in a<br class="">Botnet, or willingly running code like SETI.<br class="">Dave's offer of disk space is just the start. I suspect many people<br class="">would contribute some unused chunk of their computers and network<br class="">capacity. I have a few Terabytes on my NAS that are empty...you<br class="">probably do too. With enough participants, the BBN becomes<br class="">self-suficient even as people come and go.<br class="">All it would seem to take is for someone to sit down and write the<br class="">code....in the classic Internet spirit of Rough Consensus and<br class="">Running Code.<br class="">Dave....?<br class="">/Jack Haverty<br class="">On 2/24/19 7:42 AM, Dave Taht wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Joe Touch <<a href="mailto:touch@strayalpha.com" class="">touch@strayalpha.com</a>> writes:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On Feb 23, 2019, at 12:42 PM, Jack Haverty <<a href="mailto:jack@3kitty.org" class="">jack@3kitty.org</a>><br class=""></blockquote></blockquote>wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">But "<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" class="">internet-history@postel.org</a>", and others like it, even<br class=""></blockquote></blockquote>RFC<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">repositories, likely exist at the whim of their sponsor.<br class="">Indeed - even assuming volunteers run them - they’re’s still<br class=""></blockquote></blockquote>the issue<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">of hosting and net access.<br class="">I have old repositories (end2end-interest, for one) that even the<br class=""></blockquote></blockquote>ISOC<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">has declined to host (even though the E2E-RG originated there).<br class="">Then again, if you want to see the worst of “free riders”, go<br class=""></blockquote></blockquote>attend<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">an IETF. Companies send armies there for free training and free<br class="">consulting.<br class="">PS - speaking as list admin, if anyone wants to offer a place to<br class=""></blockquote></blockquote>host<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">this list more reliably and archivally, please do let me know<br class=""></blockquote></blockquote>(contact<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">me directly off-list).<br class=""></blockquote>My email list server currently lives on linode in the cloud. The<br class=""></blockquote>cost is<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">$5/month for 25GB of SSD storage. (<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.linode.com/pricing" class="">https://www.linode.com/pricing</a><br class="">). Has IPv6 and IPv4. It's paid for via a patreon donation.<br class="">It's not like I'm using much of that box - or the bandwidth<br class=""></blockquote>available -<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">how big are these archives?<br class="">I wouldn't mind sharing that existing list server, but I long ago<br class="">switched to violating whatever RFC it was that said starttls was a<br class="">"should" - to *mandate* starttls only - which cuts down on spam<br class=""></blockquote>(and<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">sigh, about 13% of my measured potential correspondents, still).<br class=""></blockquote>The<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">biggest administrative cost I'd had was dealing with spam.<br class="">If that's not an acceptable policy for these lists/archives, well,<br class=""></blockquote>go<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">burn the 5 bucks/mo on yer own.<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Joe<br class="">_______<br class="">internet-history mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" class="">internet-history@postel.org</a><br class=""><a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history" class="">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br class="">Contact<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" class="">list-owner@postel.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>for assistance.<br class=""></blockquote></blockquote>_______<br class="">internet-history mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" class="">internet-history@postel.org</a><br class=""><a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history" class="">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br class="">Contact<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" class="">list-owner@postel.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>for assistance.<br class="">--<br class="">New postal address:<br class="">Google<br class="">1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor<br class="">Reston, VA 20190<br class=""></blockquote>--<br class="">New postal address:<br class="">Google<br class="">1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor<br class="">Reston, VA 20190 _______<br class="">internet-history mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" class="">internet-history@postel.org</a><br class=""><a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history" class="">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br class="">Contact<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" class="">list-owner@postel.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>for assistance.<br class="">_______<br class="">internet-history mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" class="">internet-history@postel.org</a><br class=""><a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history" class="">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br class="">Contact<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" class="">list-owner@postel.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>for assistance.<br class="">_______<br class="">internet-history mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" class="">internet-history@postel.org</a><br class=""><a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history" class="">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br class="">Contact<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" class="">list-owner@postel.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>for assistance.<br class="">—<br class="">Richard Bennett<br class="">High Tech Forum [2] Founder<br class="">Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator<br class="">Internet Policy Consultant<br class="">Links:<br class="">------<br class="">[1]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://decentralizedweb.net/" class="">https://decentralizedweb.net/</a><br class="">[2]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://hightechforum.org/" class="">http://hightechforum.org</a><br class="">_______<br class="">internet-history mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" class="">internet-history@postel.org</a><br class=""><a href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history" class="">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br class="">Contact<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org" class="">list-owner@postel.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>for assistance.</blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br class=""><div class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">—<br class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Richard Bennett<br class=""><a href="http://hightechforum.org" class="">High Tech Forum</a> Founder</div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator</div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Internet Policy Consultant</div></div></div>
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