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<p>Yes, the infrastructure is designed to "enforce the lending
rules". <br>
</p>
<p>If I return a book, or my 3-week loan period ends, the book is no
longer accessible on any of my devices. An image (the cover art)
of it remains on my "bookshelf" in case I want to borrow it again
(or buy it - this is Amazon of course). I can delete the
bookshelf image if I choose. But I can't read it any more.</p>
<p>Most of what I've read has been in Kindle format, but I believe a
similar process happens with PDFs, using Adobe's mechanisms.<br>
</p>
<p>I don't know whether or not that means it is "deleted from all my
devices", including possibly any clouds or such that my device may
be syncing with or using for backup. For the casual user though,
it's gone. <br>
</p>
<p>But a sufficiently motivated and talented hacker or forensic
computer tech -- maybe they could still extract it somehow. Or
possibly build a "screenscraper" that saves the images of pages as
I read them. But it would probably be easier for such a miscreant
to go to the library building and just put the book under a coat.<br>
</p>
<p>/Jack<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/25/19 12:48 PM, John Day wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:91E89C23-E786-4D04-84DB-B5C04F9F760E@comcast.net">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
I didn’t ask if it worked to check out a book.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I asked, what happens when you return a book? Do
they delete it from all of your devices?
<div class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Feb 25, 2019, at 13:12, Jack Haverty <<a
href="mailto:jack@3kitty.org" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">jack@3kitty.org</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<p class="">Take a look at <a
href="http://overdrive.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">overdrive.com</a> - it's a
portal mechanism to "<span class="tout__description">more
than 30,000 libraries in 40+ countries"</span>.
My own library, in tiny Nevada County in
Californria, is hooked up to Overdrive. I've
borrowed hundreds of books, with a 3-week loan for
each. Occasionally I have to wait for a copy to be
returned before I can borrow it, or put a title on
their suggestion list and wait until they purchase
it. <br class="">
</p>
<p class="">It takes seconds to borrow a book and have
it available on whatever reading devices you happen
to have, and the infrastructure also "syncs" your
reading between devices. So you can read a book on
your Kindle, put it down, and later pick up your
phone, tablet, laptop, et al and continue reading
from where you left off. Pretty nice. It's hooked
in with the Amazon/Kindle infrastructure, and maybe
others too, which enforce the lending rules. (Not
sure how resistant it is to a motivated and talented
hacker) <br class="">
</p>
<p class="">Some items are available in Kindle format,
or EPub, or PDF, or some combination. It even
includes audiobooks and videos, although I've only
used it for books.<br class="">
</p>
<p class="">It all works very well. It's even free.
All you need is your library card from your local
library. The BPL is a member, so if you have a BPL
library card that's all you need.</p>
<p class="">That particular wheel has been around for
a while....<br class="">
</p>
<p class="">/Jack<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/25/19 9:33 AM, John
Day wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:82C6B71A-C0D1-4918-9B78-A7CD961AF79F@comcast.net"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
Not really related to this discussion. The head of
the Internet Archive and the head of Boston Public
Library were on Boston Public Radio last week. They
were announcing a cooperation where you can
check-out material in the BPL collection through the
Internet Archive and only one person has access to
the material at a time. Just like it was checked
out. What I didn’t hear them talk about was when
the ‘book’ or whatever is returned, how is it they
ensure the borrower doesn’t still have a copy?
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Any thoughts?</div>
<div class="">John<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Feb 25, 2019, at 11:14,
Andrew G. Malis <<a
href="mailto:agmalis@gmail.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">agmalis@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Jack,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In addition to the
Internet Archive (already mentioned),
you should also check out <a
href="https://decentralizedweb.net/"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://decentralizedweb.net</a>
.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Cheers,</div>
<div class="">Andy</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun,
Feb 24, 2019 at 9:58 PM Jack Haverty
<<a href="mailto:jack@3kitty.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">jack@3kitty.org</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<p class="">True, but I think a first
step is a persistent crowd-sourced
public store, which is what I
described. Perhaps "restricted"
material could be simply stored
encrypted, and thus visible in
search engines and accessible only
to people with the appropriate key,
or maybe "permission" credentials.
Volunteers might be reluctant to
participate if that became too
common. <br class="">
</p>
<p class="">There's also other
considerations, e.g., tracking the
provenance of an item, so you can
tell whether or not something is
authentic, where it came from, when
it was created, etc. Probably many
more such things to ponder. <br
class="">
</p>
<p class="">IMHO those kinds of
capabilities could be add-ons to a
persistent store as meta-data
mechanisms, possibly many of them
all independent, associating their
metadata with items in the warehouse
by some kind of unique ID - perhaps
just a large-enough hash of each of
the contents. They could be added
as someone gets interested in doing
so.<br class="">
</p>
<p class="">Anybody could build a
metadata mechanism "on top of" the
persistent store. Some might be
built by volunteers and free, others
by corporations and for sale. This
is almost what the Web is, except
that the Web store isn't persistent
- things on the Web disappear
without warning. Someone might put
a web site "in front of" the
persistent store and use today's web
tools pretty much as is to access
materials stored there.<br class="">
</p>
<p class="">/Jack<br class="">
</p>
<div
class="gmail-m_-5474394948743262562moz-cite-prefix">On
2/24/19 4:07 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:<br
class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">not all data
that we might want to preserve
needs to be publicly accessible.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">v</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 6:23 PM
Jack Haverty <<a
href="mailto:jack@3kitty.org"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">jack@3kitty.org</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<p class="">I don't know much
about SOLID, but it appears
to be addressing the problem
of handling individuals'
personal private data, and
controlling who can access
it. What I described was
somewhat of the inverse -
making data public,
survivable, and accessible
to everyone. But maybe
there's overlap in any
implementation. Certainly
there are lots of pieces
already in place somewhere,
as evidenced by the success
of viruses, pirated videos,
and the like.<br class="">
</p>
<p class="">The Internet has
made possible new sorts of
social mechanisms. What I'm
imagining is more like
applying Internet-style
"crowd-funding" to the
problem of a historical
archive, where people
contribute cycles and bytes
rather than euros and
dollars. <br class="">
</p>
<p class="">That wasn't
possible pre-Internet, but
it is now. Thinking
"outside the box" is a lot
easier. The Internet made
the box much bigger....</p>
<p class="">/Jack<br class="">
</p>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<div
class="gmail-m_-5474394948743262562gmail-m_-5922535944441398686moz-cite-prefix">On
2/24/19 2:45 PM, Vint Cerf
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">isn't
that what SOLID is
supposed to do?
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">v</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"
class="gmail_attr">On
Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at
1:47 PM Jack Haverty
<<a
href="mailto:jack@3kitty.org"
target="_blank"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">jack@3kitty.org</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px
0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px
solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">[Changed
the subject line]<br
class="">
<br class="">
I read the recent
messages on the forum
just before going to
sleep, and<br class="">
then I had a
dream....literally.<br
class="">
<br class="">
There's a whole
different perspective on
Internet History that
might be<br class="">
very revealing. Instead
of questions like "Who
built the Internet?",<br
class="">
perhaps also ask "Who
paid for the Internet?"
If historians "followed<br
class="">
the money" like many
other investigators,
they might find some<br
class="">
interesting insights. I
didn't realize until
today that the IETF is<br
class="">
funded by ... Me!
Through my payments for
my .org domain, maybe by
now<br class="">
I've paid for an urn or
two of coffee at an IETF
meeting.<br class="">
<br class="">
But my dream was of how
to fund some kind of
Internet repository of<br
class="">
historical materials,
not subject to the
management whims or
financial<br class="">
success of an
"institution". My
dream reminded me that
such mechanisms<br
class="">
already exist, have been
running at scale for
years, are self-funded,<br
class="">
and seem essentially
impossible to excise
even when governments or<br
class="">
industry giants try to
do so.<br class="">
<br class="">
My dream is of a
Benevolent BotNet
(apologies to my alma
mater, BBN). <br
class="">
Instead of hosting and
propagating malware and
viruses, or stealing<br
class="">
computer cycle to mine
cryptocurrency, the BBN
would simply store,<br
class="">
replicate, and
distribute historical
materials on demand. No
doubt<br class="">
Richard's comment on
Pirate Bay triggered
this part of the dream.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Such technology
obviously exists, and
survives despite serious
efforts<br class="">
to eradicate it. Where
the Internet was coopted
for evil, perhaps the<br
class="">
evil could be coopted
for good?<br class="">
<br class="">
Maybe even better would
be a mechanism that
didn't rely on theft and<br
class="">
subterfuge at all.
Perhaps something akin
to the SETI mechanisms,
where<br class="">
people voluntarily
donate their computer
resources to analyze
radio<br class="">
signals, by simply
downloading a piece of
code and allowing it to
run on<br class="">
their computers.<br
class="">
<br class="">
So, my dream was that
some new software
appears, which is freely<br
class="">
downloaded by thousands
or millions of people
around the world, which<br
class="">
uses a few GB of the
disk on their machines,
and stores historical<br
class="">
material in a redundant,
highly survivable,
persistent, distrubuted<br
class="">
historical warehouse.
One, or many, search
engines (go Google!,
Bing!,<br class="">
DuckDuckGo!) would allow
people to find material
in the warehouse. <br
class="">
Anyone could contribute
material to the
historical archive by
simply<br class="">
placing a copy into the
disk area of their
machine that they've
shared,<br class="">
from where it would be
automatically
distributed and
replicated.<br class="">
<br class="">
Perhaps this is one or
more apps that can be
downloaded. Or perhaps
a<br class="">
plug in or extension to
popular browsers. Or
maybe an addition to<br
class="">
existing mechanisms like
BitTorrent. Much of the
code already exists,<br
class="">
as evidenced by the
millions of computers
unwittingly
participating in a<br
class="">
Botnet, or willingly
running code like SETI.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Dave's offer of disk
space is just the
start. I suspect many
people<br class="">
would contribute some
unused chunk of their
computers and network<br
class="">
capacity. I have a few
Terabytes on my NAS that
are empty...you<br
class="">
probably do too. With
enough participants, the
BBN becomes<br class="">
self-suficient even as
people come and go.<br
class="">
<br class="">
All it would seem to
take is for someone to
sit down and write the<br
class="">
code....in the classic
Internet spirit of Rough
Consensus and Running
Code.<br class="">
<br class="">
Dave....?<br class="">
<br class="">
/Jack Haverty<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
On 2/24/19 7:42 AM, Dave
Taht wrote:<br class="">
> Joe Touch <<a
href="mailto:touch@strayalpha.com"
target="_blank"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">touch@strayalpha.com</a>>
writes:<br class="">
><br class="">
>> On Feb 23,
2019, at 12:42 PM, Jack
Haverty <<a
href="mailto:jack@3kitty.org"
target="_blank"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">jack@3kitty.org</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
>><br class="">
>> But "<a
href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org"
target="_blank"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">internet-history@postel.org</a>",
and others like it, even
RFC<br class="">
>>
repositories, likely
exist at the whim of
their sponsor. <br
class="">
>><br class="">
>> Indeed - even
assuming volunteers run
them - they’re’s still
the issue<br class="">
>> of hosting and
net access.<br class="">
>><br class="">
>> I have old
repositories
(end2end-interest, for
one) that even the ISOC<br
class="">
>> has declined to
host (even though the
E2E-RG originated
there).<br class="">
>><br class="">
>> Then again, if
you want to see the
worst of “free riders”,
go attend<br class="">
>> an IETF.
Companies send armies
there for free training
and free<br class="">
>> consulting. <br
class="">
>><br class="">
>> PS - speaking
as list admin, if anyone
wants to offer a place
to host<br class="">
>> this list more
reliably and archivally,
please do let me know
(contact<br class="">
>> me directly
off-list).<br class="">
> My email list
server currently lives
on linode in the cloud.
The cost is<br class="">
> $5/month for 25GB
of SSD storage. ( <a
href="https://www.linode.com/pricing"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.linode.com/pricing</a><br
class="">
> ). Has IPv6 and
IPv4. It's paid for via
a patreon donation.<br
class="">
><br class="">
> It's not like I'm
using much of that box -
or the bandwidth
available -<br class="">
> how big are these
archives?<br class="">
><br class="">
> I wouldn't mind
sharing that existing
list server, but I long
ago<br class="">
> switched to
violating whatever RFC
it was that said
starttls was a<br
class="">
> "should" - to
*mandate* starttls only
- which cuts down on
spam (and<br class="">
> sigh, about 13% of
my measured potential
correspondents, still).
The<br class="">
> biggest
administrative cost I'd
had was dealing with
spam.<br class="">
><br class="">
> If that's not an
acceptable policy for
these lists/archives,
well, go<br class="">
> burn the 5 bucks/mo
on yer own.<br class="">
><br class="">
><br class="">
>> Joe<br class="">
>><br class="">
>><br class="">
>> _______<br
class="">
>>
internet-history mailing
list<br class="">
>> <a
href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org"
target="_blank"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">internet-history@postel.org</a><br
class="">
>> <a
href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br
class="">
>> Contact <a
href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org"
target="_blank"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">list-owner@postel.org</a>
for assistance.<br
class="">
_______<br class="">
internet-history mailing
list<br class="">
<a
href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org"
target="_blank"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">internet-history@postel.org</a><br
class="">
<a
href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br
class="">
Contact <a
href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org"
target="_blank"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">list-owner@postel.org</a>
for assistance.<br
class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="" clear="all">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
-- <br class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class="gmail-m_-5474394948743262562gmail-m_-5922535944441398686gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">New
postal address:
<div class="">Google<br
class="">
<div class="">1875
Explorer Street,
10th Floor</div>
<div class="">Reston,
VA 20190</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="" clear="all">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
-- <br class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class="gmail-m_-5474394948743262562gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">New postal
address:
<div class="">Google<br class="">
<div class="">1875 Explorer
Street, 10th Floor</div>
<div class="">Reston, VA 20190</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______<br class="">
internet-history mailing list<br
class="">
<a
href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">internet-history@postel.org</a><br
class="">
<a
href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br
class="">
Contact <a
href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">list-owner@postel.org</a>
for assistance.<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
_______<br class="">
internet-history mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">internet-history@postel.org</a><br
class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history</a><br
class="">
Contact <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:list-owner@postel.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">list-owner@postel.org</a>
for assistance.<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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