<div dir="ltr">yes that is the repot- i see I was off by a couple of years! <div><br></div><div>It was requested by DARPA and we offered a way to distribute ownership of the ARPANET but ARPA rejected the idea and handed control to DCA in 1975.</div><div><br></div><div>v</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 10:41 PM Fenwick Mckelvey <<a href="mailto:fenwick.mckelvey@concordia.ca">fenwick.mckelvey@concordia.ca</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<p>Hi all,</p>
<p>Thanks Alex for the comments. I really appreciate the 'nit-picky'-ness. We posted the article on the list to get feedback, so the comments are wonderful. I'll reply in-line.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>1. We struggled when writing the paper about how serious AT&T considered taking over ARPANET. We eventually cut this argument, because it was beyond its scope and we didn't have a clear opinion. Howard Frank's quote at the start of the paper suggests there
were meeting that didn't go anywhere. In JCR Licklider's archive, I found a mention that AT&T didn't like the idea of taking over the ARPANET because of privacy, but I could never check or qualify the comment. For discussion, the note was a summary of a panel
discussion on National Networks held at the Interuniversity Communication Council Annual Meeting on 15 October 1970. It noted that AT&T did not want to take ownership of ARPANET because its design violated the company’s privacy obligations as a common carrier.
A summary of the panel states, "the design of the IMPs creates a special security problem. On its way from the sender to the recipient, data pass through an IMP in the possession of a third party, who has access to it. The carrier traditionally has responsibility
for the security of transmission; thus AT&T find the current situation unacceptable". I never found any more details or context for that quote.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>2. Agreed, that sentence is unclear. We're not claiming ARPANET's design led to the break up of AT&T. We're providing some context about the broader movement toward decentralization and markets not ARPANET itself.
<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>3. I'll look into how I can revise that description. Much appreciated. Reading the old documentation is great, but it can be a challenge to interpret.
<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Vint, are you referring to the ARPANET: A Management Study: <a href="https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/777747.pdf" target="_blank">
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/777747.pdf</a> You given some context, but I'd welcome any more details.
<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div id="gmail-m_3939524456564787744Signature">
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<div>Best,
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Fenwick McKelvey</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href="http://www.fenwickmckelvey.com" id="gmail-m_3939524456564787744NoLP" target="_blank">http://www.fenwickmckelvey.com</a>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
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<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Associate Professor, Communication Studies, Concordia University</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Director of the Algorithmic Media Observatory</div>
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<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Member of the Center for the Study of Democratic Citizenship</div>
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<div style="color:rgb(33,33,33)">
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="gmail-m_3939524456564787744divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Vint Cerf <<a href="mailto:vint@google.com" target="_blank">vint@google.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 24, 2019 9:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alex McKenzie<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Fenwick Mckelvey; <a href="mailto:kdriscoll@virginia.edu" target="_blank">kdriscoll@virginia.edu</a>; <a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org" target="_blank">internet-history@postel.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [ih] New journal article on IMPs, modems and gateways</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">AT&T was not approached to take over the ARPANET as far as I know - they were invited to participate in it and declined.
<div>Around 1972 Paul Baran and I did a study for ARPA about distributing its IMP assets to various parties rather than making</div>
<div>it monolithic. ARPA declined that idea. Eventually it was handed to DCA in 1975 to operate as a service. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Bell Labs was interested in its own Bell Data Network design but not interested in taking over ARPANET.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>v</div>
<div><br>
<div><br>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail-m_3939524456564787744gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 7:43 PM Alex McKenzie <<a href="mailto:aamsendonly396@gmail.com" target="_blank">aamsendonly396@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Fenwick,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you for posting the pointer to this article to the Internet History list. I've finally had a chance to read it, and I have a few comments.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. Your paper investigates ARPANET IMPs (and internet gateways) as boundary devices, insulating two technical spheres ("computer people" and "telephone people") from each other. This, in my opinion, is absolutely correct. But then you go on to suggest
that these two spheres are not really so distinct, and that "it was not inconceivable that control of the publicly-funded ARPANET would be transferred to the national telecommunications monopoly. ... While it is unclear how seriously AT&T considered taking
over ARPANET." I believe that AT&T DID seriously consider taking over ARPANET and firmly rejected the idea as of no practical interest to their mission. For example, in the Computer History Museum transcript of an interview with Dr. Lawrence "Larry" Roberts
[<a href="https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2013/04/102746626-05-01-acc.pdf" target="_blank">https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2013/04/102746626-05-01-acc.pdf</a>], page 14, Larry says about AT&T:<font size="2">
"They were formally approached. The Washington division was excited. They said to me there</font><font size="2"> was a lot of revenue they were getting from the leased lines; they thought it was great. They got excited</font><font size="2"> about it, and Bell
Labs got involved, and they had a huge committee, and I presume they went over and</font><font size="2"> over it, and they kept on looking at it, and eventually -- they never gave a response, because that was</font><font size="2"> their way of doing business,
but I found out that Bell Labs had said: 'No, it was not compatible with the</font><font size="2"> plan.' " I understand this to mean that leasing lines with data modems was within the plan, but actually fussing with any of the data going over the lines
was outside the plan. This seems to me entirely consistent with the AT&T philosophy of "carrying signals is our business, understanding the signals is NOT our business."<br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="2"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="2">2. On page 14 you suggest that the "market-oriented logic" of the internet concept led to the break-up of the Bell monopoly. I believe this is incorrect. I believe AT&T proposed the break-up (to the court hearing a US Department of Justice
lawsuit for antitrust violations against AT&T) as a strategy to avoid losing its anti-trust case. I do not believe the logic of the internet design had anything to do with the outcome of this case. Can you cite any evidence to support your viewpoint?</font></div>
<div><font size="2"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="2">3. Your description of the TIP (page 8) is slightly incorrect. The TIP had 64 ports, but due to a program limitation only 63 of the ports could be used. Any port could be connected to either a modem or a directly-wired terminal. Your
description suggests that at most 16 modems could be connected, but in fact 63 modems could be connected (if there were no directly-connected terminals) but this never happened. The directly-wired devices were not restricted to "teleprinter or video terminals";
some TIPs had line printers or other non-interactive devices attached to some ports.</font></div>
<div><font size="2"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="2">I know this is all a bit pedantic and nit-picky, but I hate to have the historical record distorted by misunderstandings in the printed literature.</font></div>
<div><font size="2"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="2">Sincerely,</font></div>
<div><font size="2">Alex McKenzie</font></div>
<div><font size="2">BBN 1967-1996<br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="2"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="2"><br>
</font></div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail-m_3939524456564787744gmail-m_-6524123440051893887gmail_attr">On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 10:44 PM Fenwick Mckelvey <<a href="mailto:fenwick.mckelvey@concordia.ca" target="_blank">fenwick.mckelvey@concordia.ca</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-CA">
<div class="gmail-m_3939524456564787744gmail-m_-6524123440051893887gmail-m_-8889654779278386490WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Kevin Driscoll and I are happy to share our new article on the interface message processor, modems and gateways published in the special issue on ARPANET in the Internet Histories journal.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">You can view the article for free at:
<a href="https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/yMkaE54yuIerwcwViDnE/full" target="_blank">
https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/yMkaE54yuIerwcwViDnE/full</a> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Our article focuses on the IMP’s relation to the telephone system – all its work connecting nodes through long lines and modems – and to the history of gateways. We hope the article inspires more interest in
our fields on gateways and other devices at the margins that connected computer networks over the years. As media historians, we are hoping to collect more examples, especially specific gateways, and welcome suggestions of where to look next.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">For me, the article was also a chance to focus more on IMPs in context, building on some insights from my new book Internet Daemons,
<a href="http://internetdaemons.com" target="_blank">http://internetdaemons.com</a>.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">If you have any questions or comments, we’d love to hear them.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Finally, a big thanks to Dave Walden for his feedback in writing this manuscript. His website, book and comments made this publication possible. All our errors are our own.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Hope you enoy!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Fenwick <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Associate Professor, Communication Studies<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Concordia University <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><a href="http://www.fenwickmckelvey.com" target="_blank">http://www.fenwickmckelvey.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">New postal address:<div>Google<br><div>1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor</div><div>Reston, VA 20190</div></div></div></div>