<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On Jul 26, 2012, at 5:12 PM, <a href="mailto:internet-history-request@postel.org">internet-history-request@postel.org</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Send internet-history mailing list submissions to<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org">internet-history@postel.org</a><br><br>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history<br>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>internet-history-request@postel.org<br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>internet-history-owner@postel.org<br><br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of internet-history digest..."<br><br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: infrastructure history [was: who invented the Internet]<br> (Larry Press)<br> 2. Re: Internet History Project (was XEROX/PUP and<br> Commercialization (was Re: FYI - Gordon Crovitz/WSJ on "Who<br> Really Invented the Internet?") (Joly MacFie)<br> 3. Re: Internet History Project (was XEROX/PUP and<br> Commercialization (was Re: FYI - Gordon Crovitz/WSJ on "Who<br> Really Invented the Internet?") (Dave Crocker)<br> 4. Re: Internet History Project (was XEROX/PUP and<br> Commercialization (was Re: FYI - Gordon Crovitz/WSJ on "Who<br> Really Invented the Internet?") (Joly MacFie)<br> 5. Essential components of Internet technology and operation<br> (Dave Crocker)<br> 6. Re: Essential components of Internet technology and operation<br> (Jorge Amodio)<br> 7. Re: Internet History Project (was XEROX/PUP and<br> Commercialization (was Re: FYI - Gordon Crovitz/WSJ on "Who<br> Really Invented the Internet?") (John Day)<br> 8. Re: Essential components of Internet technology and operation<br> (Jack Haverty)<br><br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>Message: 1<br>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 12:18:02 -0700<br>From: Larry Press <lpress@csudh.edu><br>Subject: Re: [ih] infrastructure history [was: who invented the<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Internet]<br>To: Andrew Russell <arussell@jhu.edu><br>Cc: "internet-history@postel.org" <internet-history@postel.org>,<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>"dcrocker@bbiw.net" <dcrocker@bbiw.net><br>Message-ID: <501197EA.8020301@csudh.edu><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed<br><br>On 7/26/2012 11:31 AM, Andrew Russell wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">I haven't watched the initial Obama comments that seemed to have touched off this controversy<br></blockquote><br>It was these sentences from a campaign speech in Roanoke Virginia <br>(http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/07/13/remarks-president-campaign-event-roanoke-virginia):<br><br>"The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research <br>created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the <br>Internet."<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div>The govt. funded the research based on what looked like some good ideas. Researchers and academic people built it and private industry took the ball and ran with it. That cooperation among all three sectors is what fosters innovation and has created thousands of new companies and hundreds of thousands of jobs. No one knew in the beginning exactly where the Internet was headed, but we all knew it was exciting, innovative, challenging and a darned good idea. That is usually the way it is with basic ideas - they inspire people first to dream, and then to see if they can make the dream come true.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><blockquote type="cite">most people - and certainly Crovitz - are (perhaps willfully) <br></blockquote>ignorant of the available literature on these topics.<br><br><br>In a "reasonable" post, I cut Crovitz and the WSJ editors some slack by <br>suggesting that their ignorance was not willful, but may have been a <br>case of sub-conscious confabulation:<br><br><a href="https://plus.google.com/114528586908817727732/posts/1cDvPWC2MxW">https://plus.google.com/114528586908817727732/posts/1cDvPWC2MxW</a><br><br>Loren Weinstein was not so kind :-):<br><br>https://plus.google.com/114528586908817727732/posts/1cDvPWC2MxW<br><br>Larry<br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 2<br>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 15:17:57 -0400<br>From: Joly MacFie <joly@punkcast.com><br>Subject: Re: [ih] Internet History Project (was XEROX/PUP and<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Commercialization (was Re: FYI - Gordon Crovitz/WSJ on "Who Really<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Invented the Internet?")<br>To: Jack Haverty <jack@3kitty.org><br>Cc: internet-history@postel.org, Noel Chiappa<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu><br>Message-ID:<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><CAM9VJk3YziPuhE6yRw=k7OEZHhdm-sBdGa36ihvhBT1Ta9Y7kw@mail.gmail.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br><br>When ISOC mooted the Internet Hall of Fame, I suggested there be an annex<br>for the infamous.<br><br>Possibly also a statue of the "unknown user" outside.<br><br>j<br><br><br><br>On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Jack Haverty <jack@3kitty.org> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">The CBI and others do a good job but they tend to be focused on the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">history of the technology.<br></blockquote><br>-- <br>---------------------------------------------------------------<br>Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast<br>WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com<br> http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com<br> VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - http://isoc-ny.org<br>--------------------------------------------------------------<br>-<br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20120726/352d83f8/attachment-0001.html<br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 3<br>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 12:36:11 -0700<br>From: Dave Crocker <dhc2@dcrocker.net><br>Subject: Re: [ih] Internet History Project (was XEROX/PUP and<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Commercialization (was Re: FYI - Gordon Crovitz/WSJ on "Who Really<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Invented the Internet?")<br>To: Jack Haverty <jack@3kitty.org><br>Cc: internet-history@postel.org, Noel Chiappa<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu><br>Message-ID: <50119C2B.3000705@dcrocker.net><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br><br><br><br>On 7/26/2012 10:49 AM, Jack Haverty wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">The CBI and others do a good job but they tend to be focused on the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">history of the technology. I think that "Internet History" should<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">encompass more than the technical aspects, but should include how the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">technology came out of the labs and diffused into the larger picture<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">to become an infrastructure of humanity.<br></blockquote><br><br>In terms of methodology, there is an important difference between <br>one-on-one formal interviews of individual principals, versus a <br>discussion amongst multiple principals.<br><br>I think the latter is likely to do better at getting a view of the <br>processes, such as Jack describes, as well as the tensions about the <br>history.<br><br>d/<br><br>-- <br> Dave Crocker<br> Brandenburg InternetWorking<br> bbiw.net<br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 4<br>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 17:14:33 -0400<br>From: Joly MacFie <joly@punkcast.com><br>Subject: Re: [ih] Internet History Project (was XEROX/PUP and<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Commercialization (was Re: FYI - Gordon Crovitz/WSJ on "Who Really<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Invented the Internet?")<br>To: dcrocker@bbiw.net<br>Cc: internet-history@postel.org, Noel Chiappa<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu><br>Message-ID:<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><CAM9VJk2tZRqr3ympy20oKah1RsqzPi+61OR7N5bsHD1=nLK=Ug@mail.gmail.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br><br>I think the Internet Society would be a natural host for such<br>discussions, and the HoF a natural repository.. Certainly here in NY<br>we'd be happy to facilitate such.<br><br>j<br><br><br><br>On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Dave Crocker <dhc2@dcrocker.net> wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On 7/26/2012 10:49 AM, Jack Haverty wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The CBI and others do a good job but they tend to be focused on the<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">history of the technology. I think that "Internet History" should<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">encompass more than the technical aspects, but should include how the<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">technology came out of the labs and diffused into the larger picture<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">to become an infrastructure of humanity.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">In terms of methodology, there is an important difference between one-on-one<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">formal interviews of individual principals, versus a discussion amongst<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">multiple principals.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I think the latter is likely to do better at getting a view of the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">processes, such as Jack describes, as well as the tensions about the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">history.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">d/<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">--<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Dave Crocker<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Brandenburg InternetWorking<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> bbiw.net<br></blockquote><br><br><br>-- <br>---------------------------------------------------------------<br>Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast<br>WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com<br> http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com<br> VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - http://isoc-ny.org<br>--------------------------------------------------------------<br>-<br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 5<br>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 14:56:05 -0700<br>From: Dave Crocker <dhc2@dcrocker.net><br>Subject: [ih] Essential components of Internet technology and<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>operation<br>To: "internet-history@postel.org" <internet-history@postel.org><br>Message-ID: <5011BCF5.40705@dcrocker.net><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br><br>Folks,<br><br>As evidenced by several efforts, including the latest, I doubt that <br>considering different criteria for defining the start of the Internet is <br>ever going to lead to rough consensus about a single definition.<br><br>In the face of an impasse about an entirety, it often is useful to break <br>things down into components and consider them separately.<br><br>So I suggest an exercise a deconstructive exercise.<br><br>For today's Internet:<br><br> a. Consider a technical, administrative or operational innovation <br>that is generally viewed as important for making the Internet work.<br><br> b. Identify when it was innovated and by whom.<br><br> c. Rinse, repeat, developing a list of essential components and <br>their origins.<br><br><br>For example, a couple of components that aren't near the margins of <br>importance:<br><br> 1. Packet switching<br><br> While there is some debate about fine-grain of details about <br>innovation, its conceptualization was roughly the mid-60s by one or very <br>few folk, and its demonstration in a network was, perhaps, 1969 in the <br>Arpanet.<br><br> 2. Hyperlinks<br><br> Conceptualized by Nelson and Engelbart, apparently separately. <br>(I don't know enough about the internals of Engelbart's project to know <br>exactly how it developed there and who exactly should get credit for <br>it.) Terminology from Nelson. Demonstrated operationally by Engelbart, <br>in a standalone system. Demonstrated in a distributed system by <br>Berners-Lee.<br><br><br>To the extent that my statements are inaccurate or incomplete, I suspect <br>the debate and repair effort can be more constrained for most of the <br>items (as long as we keep away from the invention of email...)<br><br><br>With a small amount of diligence, this ought to produce an interesting <br>timeline, possibly with, ummm, seven layers...<br><br>Thoughts?<br><br><br>d/<br><br>-- <br> Dave Crocker<br> Brandenburg InternetWorking<br> bbiw.net<br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 6<br>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 17:14:51 -0500<br>From: Jorge Amodio <jmamodio@gmail.com><br>Subject: Re: [ih] Essential components of Internet technology and<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>operation<br>To: dcrocker@bbiw.net<br>Cc: "internet-history@postel.org" <internet-history@postel.org><br>Message-ID:<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><CAMzo+1axnO2CDf1OxoRyHx9+zMAi+tMnyVtXxVqi=Rf_nn-7FA@mail.gmail.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br><br>I believe that one of the fundamental aspects of the Internet is that<br>since its conception has been a recursive technology that<br>enable via open participation and interconnection reinventing itself<br>over an over, and I bet it will continue to be as long as we<br>keep the packets flowing and the attorneys busy with other stuff.<br><br>-J<br><br>On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 4:56 PM, Dave Crocker <dhc2@dcrocker.net> wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">Folks,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">As evidenced by several efforts, including the latest, I doubt that<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">considering different criteria for defining the start of the Internet is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ever going to lead to rough consensus about a single definition.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">In the face of an impasse about an entirety, it often is useful to break<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">things down into components and consider them separately.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">So I suggest an exercise a deconstructive exercise.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">For today's Internet:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> a. Consider a technical, administrative or operational innovation that<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">is generally viewed as important for making the Internet work.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> b. Identify when it was innovated and by whom.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> c. Rinse, repeat, developing a list of essential components and their<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">origins.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">For example, a couple of components that aren't near the margins of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">importance:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> 1. Packet switching<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> While there is some debate about fine-grain of details about<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">innovation, its conceptualization was roughly the mid-60s by one or very few<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">folk, and its demonstration in a network was, perhaps, 1969 in the Arpanet.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> 2. Hyperlinks<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Conceptualized by Nelson and Engelbart, apparently separately. (I<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">don't know enough about the internals of Engelbart's project to know exactly<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">how it developed there and who exactly should get credit for it.)<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Terminology from Nelson. Demonstrated operationally by Engelbart, in a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">standalone system. Demonstrated in a distributed system by Berners-Lee.<br></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><blockquote class="webkit-indent-blockquote" style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div>Engelbart's projects were funded first by NASA and eventually by DARPA with some funding from other govt. agencies - that is to say GOVERNMENT FUNDING (yes I am shouting.) Doug's work laid the groundwork for the revolution in office automation that lead to a whole new way of doing business and eventually created thousands of new jobs I might add. His system, NLS, was networked to several sites (RADC, BRL, ARPA, ALMSA, and others); however, NLS was large in size and at the time the machines (also large in size) were small in capacity. Also, NLS was a very rich system and required training, which was not practical on a government-funded research contract. In 1977 NLS (then renamed Augment) was spun off by SRI to Tymshare Corp. and was sold commercially until Tymshare was bought out a few years later by McDonnell Douglas. </div></blockquote><div><br></div><blockquote class="webkit-indent-blockquote" style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div>When people say that the private sector, not the government,</div>creates jobs, they have not done their homework or have their heads in the sand. Hundreds of companies and thousands of jobs have been created as a consequence of the Internet. Thousands more have been created from basic research funded by NASA, NIH, Dept. of Energy, Dept. of Agriculture, DoD, and so on. When a private company does basic research it has its own narrow interests at heart. Google doesn't tell Facebook what it plans to do next or get together to share ideas. That is where government comes in. The more basic research that is shared with everyone openly by govt., the more innovation results. We NEED government to fuel the engine that creates high tech jobs and new industries. And even small businesses are often suppliers to government contractors or the government itself. Jack pointed out what we all know, but the rest of the world doesn't seem to understand - it takes government, academia, and private enerprise to make innovation (read that jobs) happen.</blockquote><div><br></div><blockquote class="webkit-indent-blockquote" style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div>In my opinion we have gotten away from this triad model for success. Instead everything now seems to favor the financial sector that builds nothing, contributes nothing to basic research, takes incredible risks wtth other people's money, and mostly shuffles companies around for maximum profit with not a lot of accountability. To me this is the wrong algorithm for job growth and innovation. We need the financial sector but, again in my opinion, it is not the right engine to foster creativity, new industries, and job growth.</div></blockquote><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">To the extent that my statements are inaccurate or incomplete, I suspect the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">debate and repair effort can be more constrained for most of the items (as<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">long as we keep away from the invention of email...)<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">With a small amount of diligence, this ought to produce an interesting<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">timeline, possibly with, ummm, seven layers...<br></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Wash your mouth out! :-)<br><blockquote type="cite"><div><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Thoughts?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">d/<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">--<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Dave Crocker<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Brandenburg InternetWorking<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://bbiw.net">bbiw.net</a><br></blockquote><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 7<br>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 18:31:59 -0400<br>From: John Day <<a href="mailto:jeanjour@comcast.net">jeanjour@comcast.net</a>><br>Subject: Re: [ih] Internet History Project (was XEROX/PUP and<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Commercialization (was Re: FYI - Gordon Crovitz/WSJ on "Who Really<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Invented the Internet?")<br>To: <a href="mailto:joly@punkcast.com">joly@punkcast.com</a>, <a href="mailto:dcrocker@bbiw.net">dcrocker@bbiw.net</a><br>Cc: <a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org">internet-history@postel.org</a>, Noel Chiappa<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><<a href="mailto:jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu">jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu</a>><br>Message-ID: <a0624081ccc3775cc6d07@[10.0.1.3]><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"<br><br>CBI is probably more appropriate.<br><br>At 17:14 -0400 2012/07/26, Joly MacFie wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">I think the Internet Society would be a natural host for such<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">discussions, and the HoF a natural repository.. Certainly here in NY<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">we'd be happy to facilitate such.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">j<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Dave Crocker <<a href="mailto:dhc2@dcrocker.net">dhc2@dcrocker.net</a>> wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> On 7/26/2012 10:49 AM, Jack Haverty wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> The CBI and others do a good job but they tend to be focused on the<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> history of the technology. I think that "Internet History" should<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> encompass more than the technical aspects, but should include how the<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> technology came out of the labs and diffused into the larger picture<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> to become an infrastructure of humanity.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> In terms of methodology, there is an important difference between one-on-one<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> formal interviews of individual principals, versus a discussion amongst<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> multiple principals.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> I think the latter is likely to do better at getting a view of the<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> processes, such as Jack describes, as well as the tensions about the<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> history.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> d/<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> --<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> Dave Crocker<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> Brandenburg InternetWorking<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://bbiw.net">bbiw.net</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">--<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">---------------------------------------------------------------<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 <a href="Skype:punkcast">Skype:punkcast</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">WWWhatsup NYC - <a href="http://wwwhatsup.com">http://wwwhatsup.com</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://pinstand.com">http://pinstand.com</a> - <a href="http://punkcast.com">http://punkcast.com</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - <a href="http://isoc-ny.org">http://isoc-ny.org</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">--------------------------------------------------------------<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">-<br></blockquote><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 8<br>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 17:11:50 -0700<br>From: Jack Haverty <<a href="mailto:jack@3kitty.org">jack@3kitty.org</a>><br>Subject: Re: [ih] Essential components of Internet technology and<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>operation<br>To: <a href="mailto:dcrocker@bbiw.net">dcrocker@bbiw.net</a><br>Cc: "<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org">internet-history@postel.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org">internet-history@postel.org</a>><br>Message-ID:<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><<a href="mailto:CAJLkZP=MD3F3O=yQ+L5U=XVVRQNQtKaytEKQWYOisoWxSgCajg@mail.gmail.com">CAJLkZP=MD3F3O=yQ+L5U=XVVRQNQtKaytEKQWYOisoWxSgCajg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br><br>Not to discourage capturing history, but I think this is a really hard task.<br><br>Consider for example "packet switching", as the "operational<br>innovation" of breaking a message up into smaller pieces, sending the<br>pieces independently and/or redundantly, and putting it all together<br>at the destination.<br><br>The earliest instance of this technique (as opposed to specific<br>computer implementation) that I've encountered was ... during the<br>heyday of the Roman Empire. Roman generals out in remote parts of<br>the frontier had to communicate with Rome reliably and securely. So,<br>slaves were tasked to write a message on a scroll, possibly even<br>making several scrolls with the same message. Each scroll was then<br>ripped into strips, each containing only an unintelligible fragment of<br>the message. Each strip was given to a different courier, who would<br>run to the destination. Different couriers were sent by different<br>means, e.g., one by land and one by sea, one by mountains, one through<br>the desert, and would choose their route based on local conditions<br>they encountered. When enough couriers reached the destination the<br>message could be reassembled and read. Spies or hostile forces along<br>the way might intercept some couriers, but they couldn't read the<br>message. Slaves were expendable "packets". With enough couriers, a<br>message would very likely get through.<br><br>Sounds like "Packet Switching" to me. Once computers got invented<br>slaves were no longer the best choice, so now we employ computers to<br>do our packet switching. Credit Caesar, roughly 2000 years ago. One<br>of his staff probably actually defined the technique, after hearing<br>about it at the local pub from a traveler from a distant land.<br><br>Sadly, this was all documented in RFC MCLVII, which was never issued.<br><br>/Jack<br><br><br>On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Dave Crocker <<a href="mailto:dhc2@dcrocker.net">dhc2@dcrocker.net</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">Folks,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">As evidenced by several efforts, including the latest, I doubt that<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">considering different criteria for defining the start of the Internet is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ever going to lead to rough consensus about a single definition.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">In the face of an impasse about an entirety, it often is useful to break<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">things down into components and consider them separately.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">So I suggest an exercise a deconstructive exercise.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">For today's Internet:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> a. Consider a technical, administrative or operational innovation that<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">is generally viewed as important for making the Internet work.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> b. Identify when it was innovated and by whom.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> c. Rinse, repeat, developing a list of essential components and their<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">origins.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">For example, a couple of components that aren't near the margins of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">importance:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> 1. Packet switching<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> While there is some debate about fine-grain of details about<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">innovation, its conceptualization was roughly the mid-60s by one or very few<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">folk, and its demonstration in a network was, perhaps, 1969 in the Arpanet.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> 2. Hyperlinks<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Conceptualized by Nelson and Engelbart, apparently separately. (I<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">don't know enough about the internals of Engelbart's project to know exactly<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">how it developed there and who exactly should get credit for it.)<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Terminology from Nelson. Demonstrated operationally by Engelbart, in a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">standalone system. Demonstrated in a distributed system by Berners-Lee.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">To the extent that my statements are inaccurate or incomplete, I suspect the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">debate and repair effort can be more constrained for most of the items (as<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">long as we keep away from the invention of email...)<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">With a small amount of diligence, this ought to produce an interesting<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">timeline, possibly with, ummm, seven layers...<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Thoughts?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">d/<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">--<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Dave Crocker<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Brandenburg InternetWorking<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://bbiw.net">bbiw.net</a><br></blockquote><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>internet-history mailing list<br><a href="mailto:internet-history@postel.org">internet-history@postel.org</a><br>http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history<br><br><br>End of internet-history Digest, Vol 64, Issue 28<br>************************************************<br></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>