thanks for the lovely details! apologies to Larry Stewart - I knew it was Larry something....<div><br></div><div>v</div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:02 PM, John Shoch <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:shoch@alloyventures.com">shoch@alloyventures.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Friends,</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">As I
recall, Parc's initial Arpanet connection came via an IMP provided by
Arpa. The Xerox MAXC machine (a micro-programmed pseudo-PDP10) had a
Data General Nova as a front-end, and that was outfitted with an IMP
interface. Thus, we had Arpanet access for Maxc -- and email!
But that was not an internet.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Although the work started much earlier, the PUP architecture was first
publically described in a Xerox PARC blue-and-white report in 1979, available
here:</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"><a href="http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/alto/pupArch.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/alto/pupArch.pdf</a></font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">The
following year, the full paper was published in the IEEE Trans. on
Comm.</font></span></div>
<div><span>D. R. Boggs, J. F. Shoch, E. A. Taft, and R.
M. Metcalfe, "Pup: An Internetwork Architecture," IEEE Transactions on
Communications, April 1980.</span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">[I'm
not sure what it takes to access an online version of this, through the
IEEE.]</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">[We
really do need to get a scanned, OCR'd version of this
online......]</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">The
system initially used a set of "gateways" (now called routers) connecting
end-user machines on Ethernets, on the Data General MCA, and other
systems. The gateways were connected by leased lines, to provide our own
packet-switched backbone; we also used the ARPANET and the Packet Radio
Network as transit networks, between PUP gateways.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Some
excerpts from the paper:</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">"This
work serves as the basis for a functioning internetwork system that provides
service to about 1000 computers, on 25 networks of 5 different types, using 20
internetwork gateways."</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">"Long-haul communication facilities include the ARPANET, the ARPA packet
radio network, and a collection of leased lines implementing an ARPANET-style
store-and forward network. These facilities have distinct native protocols
and exhibit as much as three orders of magnitude difference in
bandwidth."</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">"We
distinguish two kids of gateways: media translators and protocol
translators. Media gateways are hosts with interfaces to two or more packet
transport mechanisms among which they forward internet datagrams, using the
appropriate encapsulation for each. ... Protocol gateways are hosts which speak
two or more functionaly similar but incompatible higher-level protocols used to
transport information within networks, mapping one higher level abstraction into
the other." [Our gateways were packet-style media translators; I
don't believe we ever built a PUP-to-TCP protocol
translator.]</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">"ARPANET: To cover longer distances, Pups can be routed throug the
ARPANET; the format for encapsulating a Pup in an ARPANET message is shown
in Fig. 2."</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">"Packet Radio Network: On an experimental basis, the ARPA packet
radio network has been used to carry traffic among local networks in the SF Bay
area."</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">"The
Pup archiecture emerged against a background of ARPANET protocols. Many of
its important ideas -- and those of its key relative, TCP -- first appeared
during the coure of a series of meeting[s] of the International Network Working
Group (IFIP TC-6 WG6.1) during 1973. Pup and TCP share a number of
important principles....."</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Hope
this helps.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">John
Shoch</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Alloy
Ventures</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">PS: Use of the Packet Radio net (based at SRI) as a transit
network for Pup was driven by "the other Larry" -- Larry Stewart. That
work was also published in 1979:</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"><a href="http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=800092.802993" target="_blank">http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=800092.802993</a>
Thanks again, Vint, for helping to make the PRNet available for our
experiment!</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">PPS: I met Danny Cohen through the TCP working group
meetings; he and I had fun figuring out how you might encapsulate Pup
packets in TCP packets, and TCP packets in Pup packets -- what we called
mutual encapsulation. The paper, with Ed Taft, was published in
1981: </font></span><span>Shoch, Cohen, and Taft,
Mutual Encapsulation of Internetwork Protocols", Computer Networks 5,
North-Holland, 1981, 287-300.</span></div><div class="im">
<div>
<div style="border-right:medium none;border-top:medium none;overflow:hidden;border-left:medium none;color:rgb(0,0,0);border-bottom:medium none;background-color:transparent;text-align:left;text-decoration:none"><br><br> </div>
</div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> Vint Cerf
[mailto:<a href="mailto:vint@google.com" target="_blank">vint@google.com</a>]<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 11, 2010 3:32
AM<br><b>To:</b> Matthias Bärwolff; Bob Metcalfe; John Shoch; Yogen Dalal; Larry
Masinter<br><b>Cc:</b> internet history<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ih] Early
interconnection between Ethernets and Arpanet<br><br></font></div>there were
gateways into the ARPANET from the Xerox PARC Ethernet. At least one of gateway
was built using a packet radio as part of an early internet experiment. What I
don't recall is whether this was a protocol converting gateway (from Xerox' PARC
Universal Packet and associated TCP-like protocol to TELNET/NCP for example or
whether there was an early TCP running on, e.g., either an ALTO work station or
the MAXC server). PARC also had an ARPANET IMP (or TIP?) and connected the MAXC
into the ARPANET as an NCP host. The Ethernet would have linked the ALTOs into
the MAXC machine. PUP was being developed at the same time as TCP/IP so I expect
there was protocol conversion going on somewhere; possibly in MAXC.
<div><br></div>
<div>I am not sure whether Bob Metcalfe, Yogen Dalal and John Shoch are on the
history list so I am copying them directly. Bob and John were at PARC during the
TCP/IP and PUP developments; Yogen was at Stanford working on TCP/IP during the
1974-1976 period and later joined PARC to work on XNS (Xerox Network System)
that grew out of the PUP experiments. If I remember correctly, Larry Masinter
did the work to link the Ethernet at PARC with the Bay Area Packet Radio network
with a packet radio on the premises. </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>vint</div>
</div><div><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><div class="im">On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 6:00 AM, Matthias Bärwolff <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mbaer@cs.tu-berlin.de" target="_blank">mbaer@cs.tu-berlin.de</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="padding-left:1ex;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:#ccc 1px solid">Dear
all,<br><br><div class="im">is there any documentation (or tacit knowledge on this list) on
early<br>Ethernet-Arpanet gateways (obviously other than those built using IP
in<br>the late 1970s)? I found some documentation on how Alohanet
terminals<br>connected to the Arpanet, and how the NPL guys in the UK
connected their<br>IBM machines to their TIP, plus some notes on how people
struggled to<br>get the SRI port expanders working; but nothing on the much
more obvious<br>candidate, Ethernet, given its early popularity.<br><br></div><div class="im">Sorry
if I've just been lazy. Thanks for all hints.<br><br>Matthias<br><font color="#888888"><br>--<br>Matthias Bärwolff<br><a href="http://www.xn--brwolff-5wa.de" target="_blank"><font color="red"><b>MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.xn--brwolff-5wa.de" claiming to be</b></font> www.bärwolff.de</a><br><br></font></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>