<div dir="ltr">Greetings,<div><br></div><div>A technical solution may emerge. The first part to figure out is what problem are we trying to solve. If we are looking at this specific use case, the solution could be to continue work that prevents filtering access and that has been a concerted effort by the IETF for quite some time. They have successfully pushed further to true end-to-end encryption solutions with the advancements made in TLSv1.3 and more recently the work on the encrypted client Hello. If you are not familiar with ECH, here's a blog aimed at assisting the enterprise with adjusting to this change: <a href="https://labs.ripe.net/author/kathleen_moriarty/security-control-changes-due-to-tls-encrypted-clienthello/">https://labs.ripe.net/author/kathleen_moriarty/security-control-changes-due-to-tls-encrypted-clienthello/</a> </div><div><br></div><div>In time, browsers could drop the option to disable ECH and then middleboxes would serve little purpose. Individual organizations have a choice in what DNS service they use and the remaining options to prevent access to specific hosts/hostnames.</div><div><br></div><div>Another possible solution is standing up a better TikTok with a different country running the services. This could be built on a distributed model more aligned to the multi-stakeholder model or to see if TikTok sells as has been asked. </div><div><br></div><div>As for the problem space, one concern causing the action is the collection of data and then the possible use of it. China in the past went after intellectual property, but they have shifted to follow patterns of Russia to sow discord in order to weaken adversaries. Tiktok in China promotes STEM videos and other educational content to children, in the US (and likely elsewhere) they distribute more gimmicky videos along with mis- and dis-information. China plays a long game, so this is considered a strategy to eventually be more advanced in science and math as our youth matures. "Unrestricted Warfare" is another book to read that was recently translated into English. You'll see much of the plans from the 90s have been successful.</div><div><br></div><div>The aim for legislation is to keep data out of the hands of adversaries and possibly to prevent this cultivation of content targeting a dumbing down of our youth. If you get to the core of that problem, alternate solutions would need to also promote science and math and get us through some literacy hurdles recently faced with poor reading curriculums that were not based on science.</div><div><br></div><div>Perhaps others have ideas in terms of additional technical options. I was hoping it would be helpful to lay out the concerns and challenges a bit more to see if it aids in spurring on someone else's creativity.</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen </div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 6:39 AM Dr. Joseph Lorenzo Hall via Chapter-delegates <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg3711954613632812412">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">> If we as a <br>
> technical community continue to stick our heads in the sand and only <br>
> file legal amicus briefs and not come up with technical solutions<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I disagree. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Legal interventions are a key tool that the technical community uses to make sure its perspective is known to the Courts, from the IANA transition [1] through many hundreds if not thousands of cases around
the world. And I don’t think it’s correct to characterize this work as sticking our heads in the sand, or any of the work the ISOC community and partners have done to counter Internet fragmentation (this has been one of my areas of work for the past five years
since I joined, so I may be overly sensitive). <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">If you have a technical solution or even a sketch of one that could thread the needle, that would be great as that has been an important thread in the US debate with respect to Tiktok (e.g., project Texas).
I’m not sure what more generic technical solutions you have in mind to counter fragmentation but please elaborate.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Best, Joe<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">[1]: <a href="https://www.internetsociety.org/resources/doc/2016/iana-amicus-brief/" target="_blank">
https://www.internetsociety.org/resources/doc/2016/iana-amicus-brief/</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">--<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">JLH, Internet Society, <a href="mailto:hall@isoc.org" target="_blank">
<span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">hall@isoc.org</span></a> ( <a href="https://josephhall.org/" target="_blank">
<span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://josephhall.org/</span></a> )<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span style="color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="color:black">Chapter-delegates <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org</a>> on behalf of Hank Nussbacher via Chapter-delegates <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 01:20<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a> <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Chapter-delegates] TikTok Ban. How should ISOC respond?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">On 10/12/2024 2:31, Dan York via Chapter-delegates wrote:<br>
<br>
I know everyone is against Internet fragmentation, including myself but <br>
allow me to state an alternative view.<br>
Governments have asked the technical community to self-police itself, <br>
yet we always wave our hands and say something like "but every 10 year <br>
old can use a VPN". Tiktok has been on the radar of governments for years:<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/tiktok-risks-pushing-children-towards-harmful-content/" target="_blank">https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/tiktok-risks-pushing-children-towards-harmful-content/</a><br>
<a href="https://www.adl.org/resources/article/sliding-through-spreading-antisemitism-tiktok-exploiting-moderation-gaps" target="_blank">https://www.adl.org/resources/article/sliding-through-spreading-antisemitism-tiktok-exploiting-moderation-gaps</a><br>
<a href="https://www.dearasianyouth.org/literature/article/the-toxicity-of-tiktok" target="_blank">https://www.dearasianyouth.org/literature/article/the-toxicity-of-tiktok</a><br>
<a href="https://www.uottawa.ca/about-us/information-technology/services/security/tiktok-use-privacy-risks" target="_blank">https://www.uottawa.ca/about-us/information-technology/services/security/tiktok-use-privacy-risks</a><br>
<br>
So what do some governments do when we as a technical community fail in <br>
our job? Look to Australia as a case in point.<br>
Look to this US ban winding its way through courts. If we as a <br>
technical community continue to stick our heads in the sand and only <br>
file legal amicus briefs and not come up with technical solutions, we <br>
very well might see a tsunami of efforts like these that will truly <br>
fragment the Internet.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Hank<br>
<br>
><br>
><br>
>> On Dec 9, 2024, at 9:07</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:11pt">AM, Dr. Joseph Lorenzo Hall via
<br>
>> Chapter-delegates <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> We are closely monitoring the current situation in the USA, <br>
>> particularly since TikTok may appeal to the US Supreme Court.<br>
><br>
> I’ll note that this continues to unfold with TikTok filing an <br>
> emergency motion today for an injunction to stop the law from taking <br>
> effect while they appeal to the US Supreme Court:<br>
><br>
> - BBC: <a href="https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yx7e2lx3yo" target="_blank">https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yx7e2lx3yo</a><br>
> - TikTok: <br>
> <a href="https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-us/tiktok-files-emergency-motion-for-injunction" target="_blank">
https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-us/tiktok-files-emergency-motion-for-injunction</a>
<br>
><br>
><br>
> The US Department of Justice of course filed a letter saying that the <br>
> appeals court should reject the injunction request.<br>
><br>
> TikTok’s full filing is interesting reading for those wanting to dive <br>
> into detail: <br>
> <a href="https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cadc.40861/gov.uscourts.cadc.40861.1208687888.0.pdf" target="_blank">
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cadc.40861/gov.uscourts.cadc.40861.1208687888.0.pdf</a>
<br>
><br>
><br>
> As far as the next steps, the filing from TikTok includes this <br>
> information:<br>
> ——<br>
> Petitioners respectfully request a decision no later than December 16, <br>
> 2024, to ensure time to seek emergency relief from the Supreme Court <br>
> if necessary. The parties have agreed on the following schedule: <br>
> Petitioners filed this motion by 10:00 a.m. on December 9; the <br>
> Government will file any response by December 11; Petitioners will <br>
> file any reply by December 12.<br>
> ——<br>
> So if the DC Court of Appeals goes along with that request, there <br>
> should be a decision about the injunction by next Monday. This would <br>
> presumably determine whether TikTok has more time (if injunction is <br>
> granted) for an appeal to the US Supreme Court, or if they need to <br>
> make an emergency appeal.<br>
><br>
> Not-a-lawyer-but-watching-with-fascination,<br>
> Dan<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> *Dan York*, Senior Advisor | Internet Society<br>
> <a href="mailto:york@isoc.org" target="_blank">york@isoc.org</a> | +1-603-439-0024 | <a href="https://mastodon.social/@danyork" target="_blank">https://mastodon.social/@danyork</a><br>
><br>
<br>
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</div></blockquote></div><div><br clear="all"></div><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div></div>