<div dir="ltr">Just for clarification, I'm speaking in my personal capacity as a regular ISOC member and not as a board member. The essence of my last email if for the provision of additional information to the intellectual / policy conversation. </div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 9:23 AM Dave Burstein <<a href="mailto:daveb@dslprime.com">daveb@dslprime.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">Caleb</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">Because it is still in play, anything we do might have more impact. Which is why I think the board should actively consider the issue. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">Thanks for speaking up. I hope we hear from others.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 10:13 AM Caleb Ogundele via Chapter-delegates <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hi Joseph and Dave,<br><br>I’m sharing some information in my personal capacity. Yesterday, I watched Donald Trump’s interview on NBC (link: <a href="https://youtu.be/b607aDHUu2I?si=NNpWK3ccTesYr8Ap&t=3991" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/b607aDHUu2I?si=NNpWK3ccTesYr8Ap&t=3991</a>).<br><br>During the interview, he was asked whether he would protect TikTok. He acknowledged using TikTok as part of his election victory strategy with youths who are major consumers of the TikTok app. While I’m no expert in psychology or reading body language, Donald Trump's demeanor in that interview suggested that he might consider giving TikTok a <b>political lifeline</b> when he was asked if he would protect TikTok. Suppose Tiktok can appeal before January 19th, just before Donald Trump is set to resume office on January 20th that might likely be some action in his first 100 days in office to give it a political lifeline.<br><br>Best regards,<br>Caleb Ogundele<br><div><br><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 8:42 AM Dr. Joseph Lorenzo Hall via Chapter-delegates <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
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Also, our amicus project intervened this past May in the Montana Tiktok case in the USA (<i>Alario et al, Tiktok v. Knudsen</i>), which was a state-level app ban of Tiktok aimed at app stores. I say "was" as the case was mooted (stopped) when the federal divestment
ban law was signed.</div>
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In our brief we described how this ban would undermine foundational aspects of the Internet and is technically unworkable. Dan York and John Morris published a blog post describing the case and our argument:</div>
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<a href="https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2024/05/montanas-tiktok-ban-breaking-the-internet-and-undermining-online-privacy/" target="_blank">https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2024/05/montanas-tiktok-ban-breaking-the-internet-and-undermining-online-privacy/</a></div>
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And here is the PDF of the brief itself (it should be very accessible for a legal brief, if I do say so!):</div>
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<a href="https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Amicus-Brief-TikTok-v.-Knudsen_05.06.24.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Amicus-Brief-TikTok-v.-Knudsen_05.06.24.pdf</a></div>
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JLH, Internet Society, <a href="mailto:hall@isoc.org" target="_blank">hall@isoc.org</a> ( <a href="https://josephhall.org/" target="_blank">https://josephhall.org/</a> )</div>
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<div id="m_-6128416231600171468m_-8239632324285341999m_-421916841218065226m_-3199242262986418870divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Chapter-delegates <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org</a>> on behalf of Dr. Joseph Lorenzo Hall via Chapter-delegates <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 9, 2024 09:07<br>
<b>To:</b> ISOC Chapter Delegates <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>>; Dave Burstein <<a href="mailto:daveb@dslprime.com" target="_blank">daveb@dslprime.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Chapter-delegates] TikTok Ban. How should ISOC respond?</font>
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<p><span style="color:black">Hi Dave,</span></p>
<p><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color:black">This development is concerning, and for those legally inclined, the outcome from the Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit on Friday was a bit surprising.</span></p>
<p><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color:black">(The Court upheld the underlying forced divestment law as constitutional, despite a "strict scrutiny" challenge under the First Amendment of the US Constitution. This was based on national security grounds, with
the Court showing heavy deference to the government, despite the lack of public evidence regarding the dangers to national security.)</span></p>
<p><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color:black">In addition to the 2023 statement we crafted, which addresses the dangers of app and service bans more generally, you should know that we issued two strong statements in 2020 specifically regarding proposed WeChat
and TikTok bans, as well as the somewhat innocently named US Clean Network program (which would have denied all interconnection in the USA with Chinese networks):
</span></p>
<p><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<ul type="disc" style="margin-top:0in">
<li style="color:black;margin-left:0in"><a href="https://www.internetsociety.org/news/statements/2020/internet-society-u-s-administration-ban-of-tiktok-and-wechat-is-a-direct-attack-on-the-internet/" target="_blank">https://www.internetsociety.org/news/statements/2020/internet-society-u-s-administration-ban-of-tiktok-and-wechat-is-a-direct-attack-on-the-internet/</a></li><li style="color:black;margin-left:0in"><a href="https://www.internetsociety.org/news/statements/2020/internet-society-statement-on-u-s-clean-network-program/" target="_blank">https://www.internetsociety.org/news/statements/2020/internet-society-statement-on-u-s-clean-network-program/</a></li></ul>
<p><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color:black">We are closely monitoring the current situation in the USA, particularly since TikTok may appeal to the US Supreme Court. The incoming President appears inclined to "save" TikTok, but the details of how that
will happen remain unclear. As the relevant ISOC leader here, think it's important to keep an eye on the technical implementation of any blocking order, as that could become complicated and is precisely where we are most concerned about unintended consequences.
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<p><span style="color:black">I’m not sure it’s time for another public statement (especially about a lower court's First Amendment ruling), given that there are still many legal avenues in motion, but maybe you had other ideas in mind. We
would love to hear any ideas from Chapters and our community regarding action or engagement.</span></p>
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<p><span style="color:black">Cheers, </span></p>
<p><span style="color:black">Joe Hall</span></p>
<p><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">--</span></p>
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<p><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">JLH, Internet Society, <a href="mailto:hall@isoc.org" target="_blank">hall@isoc.org</a> (
<a href="https://josephhall.org/" target="_blank">https://josephhall.org/</a> )</span></p>
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<p><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"> Chapter-delegates <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org</a>>
on behalf of Dave Burstein via Chapter-delegates <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 9, 2024 02:28<br>
<b>To:</b> ISOC Chapter Delegates <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Chapter-delegates] TikTok Ban. How should ISOC respond?</span> </p>
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<p><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">170 million Americans use TikTok, Facebook's only major international competitor. T<i>his is the largest Internet blockage in Western history.</i> The proponents—and the court—believe
it is a major security problem that justifies blocking the Internet. </span></p>
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<p><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">(Because we have a strong, clear position on the issue - below - this note should have come from the Chair or CEO. But maybe it's good for the chapters to take the lead more often.)</span></p>
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<p><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">From the
<i>Times: </i></span>TikTok Faces U.S. Ban After Losing Bid to Overturn New Law<br>
The law will ban the video app in the United States by Jan. 19 if its owner, ByteDance, does not sell it to a non-Chinese company.<br>
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<p>Conveniently, we have almost nothing of substance planned at Wednesday's board meeting. We can spend several hours discussing what ISOC's policy should be.
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<p>ISOC took a strong position on this issue in 2023. <a href="https://www.internetsociety.org/news/statements/2023/specific-app-and-service-bans-are-fragmenting-the-internet/" target="_blank">https://www.internetsociety.org/news/statements/2023/specific-app-and-service-bans-are-fragmenting-the-internet/</a> </p>
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<p>Is it possible for the Internet Society to take action when the problem is our home country?</p>
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<p>Ted, Sally - can our pr department put together a press call on zoom to address this openly and transparently? </p>
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<p><span style="font-family:"Hind Regular"">Here's our 2023 statement. It's very clear and to the point.</span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Hind Regular"">Specific App and Service Bans are Fragmenting the Internet<br>
Increasing government actions to block or ban specific web services or applications are fragmenting the Internet.</span></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:22.5pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="font-family:"Hind Regular"">Because of how the Internet works, top-down interference with specific services and technologies on the Internet will likely damage interoperation and tend to
splinter the Internet into smaller, less-connected islands. </span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:22.5pt;vertical-align:baseline;box-sizing:border-box;color:inherit">
<span style="font-family:"Hind Regular"">As the Internet and the services on it become more important, people increasingly depend on them. ...</span></p>
<p style="vertical-align:baseline;box-sizing:border-box"><span style="font-family:"Hind Regular"">Some governments claim their actions are necessary for national security–when citizen use of some applications or services could lead to wide scale theft of personal
data, exposure of national security assets, or creation of numerous in-country landing points for a widespread cybersecurity attack, among other risks. But the idea that these risks are somehow unique to a particular application or service is poorly founded:
the same attacks could be as easily embedded in another permitted application. Since the Internet is such a flexible technology, any necessary defense of national security has to come from preventing the attacks </span><em><span style="font-family:"inherit",serif;border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0in">no
matter how</span></em><span style="font-family:"Hind Regular""> they come from the Internet. National security that supposedly comes from banning a particular application is a security blanket made entirely of holes. </span></p>
<p style="vertical-align:baseline;box-sizing:border-box"><span style="font-family:"Hind Regular"">Governments should avoid service or applications specific bans, which undermine security and access to opportunities on the world’s greatest communications resource.
Instead of banning a particular platform or application based on <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7754" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(29,105,211);border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0in">non-technical criteria</span></a> like country of
origin or ownership, countries should be transparent about risks and raise the privacy and security standards for </span><em><span style="font-family:"inherit",serif;border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0in">all</span></em><span style="font-family:"Hind Regular""> online
services and app stores to mitigate broader potential threats to critical infrastructure and services from end-user devices. </span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:22.5pt;vertical-align:baseline;box-sizing:border-box"><span style="font-family:"Hind Regular"">-----------------------</span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:22.5pt;vertical-align:baseline;box-sizing:border-box"><span style="font-family:"Hind Regular";color:rgb(34,34,34)">(It's particularly important for the Chair to get involved. The last time this came up was when the chapters asked ISOC to
take a position on the cutoff of Internet service in Gaza and the chair was asked to comment. The board has a fiduciary responsibility it shouldn't duck.)</span><span style="font-family:"Hind Regular""></span></p>
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_______________________________________________<br>
As a Chapter Leader, you are automatically added to the Internet Society’s Chapter Leaders Community Group and the Chapter Delegates e-list. Based on ISOC’s legitimate interests to communicate with its chapter leaders, you will remain subscribed for the duration of your term and will be unsubscribed automatically when your term ends.<br>
<br>
<br>
As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed<br>
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</div></blockquote></div><div><br clear="all"></div><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><b><font color="#000000">Caleb Ogundele</font></b><div><font color="#000000">Email: <a href="mailto:muyiwacaleb@gmail.com" target="_blank">muyiwacaleb@gmail.com</a></font></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
As a Chapter Leader, you are automatically added to the Internet Society’s Chapter Leaders Community Group and the Chapter Delegates e-list. Based on ISOC’s legitimate interests to communicate with its chapter leaders, you will remain subscribed for the duration of your term and will be unsubscribed automatically when your term ends.<br>
<br>
<br>
As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed<br>
to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society Chapter Portal (AMS): <a href="https://community.internetsociety.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://community.internetsociety.org</a>.<br>
-<br>
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: <a href="https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div><div><br clear="all"></div><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><b><font color="#000000">Caleb Ogundele</font></b><div><font color="#000000">Email: <a href="mailto:muyiwacaleb@gmail.com" target="_blank">muyiwacaleb@gmail.com</a></font></div></div></div>