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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Ted,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We seem to be talking at cross-purposes. I was not referring to any specific digital sovereignty rules, but rather to the general principle that offline law applies equally online.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I’m not sure which specific digital sovereignty rules you are referring to. Can you please point to the rules that would mandate provision of customer support locally?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Richard<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Ted Hardie [mailto:ted.ietf@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, 27 May 2022 19:20<br><b>To:</b> Richard Hill<br><b>Cc:</b> Vittorio Bertola; ISOC Chapters<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Chapter-delegates] Digital sovreignty and splinternet<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It's not clear to me which side of this you mean for the analogy to represent. If you mean the current digital sovereignty rules, I don't think it works. To me, those would be similar to saying that since the same Anti-NAZI regulations present in France are not present in Quebec, you cannot provide customer support from Quebec to France, since the customer support rep might use the open channel to support NAZI idealogies. You must provide customer support locally, within the jurisdiction that has the Anti-NAZI regulations.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The risk is that this could escalate further, to saying that the French telephone system will only allow calls from territories which also have Anti-NAZI regulations like those in France, to avoid a similar issue. That would splinter the telephony system.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Ted Hardie<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, May 27, 2022 at 9:48 AM Richard Hill <<a href="mailto:rhill@hill-a.ch">rhill@hill-a.ch</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I wonder whether there is an analogy to be made with roads: roads are intended to facilitate the transportation of persons and goods, including across national borders. But there are restrictions on what can be transported, both within national borders, and when crossing national borders.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Richard</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor blue'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Vittorio Bertola [mailto:<a href="mailto:vb@bertola.eu" target="_blank">vb@bertola.eu</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, 27 May 2022 11:40<br><b>To:</b> Ted Hardie<br><b>Cc:</b> Richard Hill; ISOC Chapters<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Chapter-delegates] Digital sovreignty and splinternet</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Il 2022-05-26 17:25 Ted Hardie via Chapter-delegates ha scritto:</span><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 5.0pt;margin-left:0cm;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(16,16,255)'><div id="gmail-m_5873501869051897912replybody1"><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Dear Richard,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>I think you interpret LICRA v. Yahoo in a way that the facts of the case do not bear out. The point of the ruling was that the sales of memorabilia were illegal in France despite the servers being in the US. This would tend to argue against the need to force services to be delivered in country, since these exceptional cases can already be handled wherever the servers are physically located.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div id="gmail-m_5873501869051897912replybody1"><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>The reason behind the current trend for data localisation requirements in Europe is motivated exactly by the difference in national regulations, especially in terms of privacy and data protection. The European Court of Justice ruled that the laws of most countries outside of the EU (including the U.S.) do not adequately protect the data of European citizens, so their data should not be exported there. In particular, the concern about the U.S. is related to the CLOUD Act, that forces American companies to disclose data of European citizens to American law enforcement agencies, even if the servers are in Europe. While there are differences (and lawsuits) in terms of interpretation of this act, of course the safest bet for the moment is to keep all European data on servers managed by European companies, and public officers concerned about this problem are pushing just that.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>I don't see how this is "fragmenting the Internet", though. I understand the complaints by the American big tech industry, as this is damaging their business, but it is not different from any other issue related to the fact that you have to comply with local regulation to sell your products in a given country, which has always been the case. Nobody ever complained that the US is "fragmenting the world" by forbidding Europeans from importing certain food products into their country, right? So this has nothing to do with the technical or network architecture of the Internet, it is a business and legal issue.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div id="gmail-m_5873501869051897912signature"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=gmail-m5873501869051897912sig><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>-- </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br><span class=gmail-m5873501869051897912sig>vb. Vittorio Bertola - vb [a] <a href="http://bertola.eu" target="_blank">bertola.eu</a> <--------</span><br><span class=gmail-m5873501869051897912sig>--------> now blogging & more at <a href="https://bertola.eu/" target="_blank">https://bertola.eu/</a> <--------</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>