<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Ted</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Thanks for engaging. I was way over my head talking about this in FG2030, but no one else spoke up. (I know telco networks, not Internet protocols.) I was very flattered when Vint and Andrew jumped in and I discovered my contentions were on target.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">You're right that the original FG2030 proposal was ugly in not dealing with backward capability, i.e. replacing IP. <i>But that's been discarded since, which is why I'm trying to make sure that the Internet Society is working with the current versions of the proposal. </i></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">The <b><i>current</i></b> version at the ITU does not differ from the IETF in the way you cite. There are plenty of differences, but if the IETF draft is implemented the way the telcos intend, it would shift control to the telcos. It's about extending the QoS in 5G across networks, so the telcos can sell guaranteed QoS from headquarters in Brussels to a branch in Naples. <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><div class="gmail_default">Among those who supported the consensus at FG2030 were BT, KDDI, NTT, China Telecom, China Mobile, Ericsson, Nokia, and a dozen senior academics. <a href="https://bit.ly/3kNKNDc">https://bit.ly/3kNKNDc</a> The respected Mehmet Toy of Verizon was among the leaders; I like to call this the Verizon Proposal, to avoid looking like just another American China-basher. <br></div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">Whether the IP protocol is included is a side issue that the companies pressing ahead on this have discarded as less important. What they care about is not protocols control, so they can guarantee QoS and charge for it.<br></div><div class="gmail_default"></div></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Hank pointed t</font>o Marco Hogewoning's RIPE article, which is on target about the primary issue.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Rosario,serif;font-size:20px">This is much more of a fundamental shift than it first appears to be, as it would give control to the core of the network instead of leaving it to the end points. </span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href="https://labs.ripe.net/author/marco_hogewoning/do-we-need-a-new-ip/" target="_blank">https://labs.ripe.net/author/marco_hogewoning/do-we-need-a-new-ip/</a></span><br></div><br class="gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">It's the old Bellhead vs nethead debate, now international.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Incidentally, the ETSI "Non-IP" proposal is moving ahead in standardization, and does throw away IP to enable cross network QoS. ETSI, which houses 3GPP and is not just European, is potentially a power player here and like IETF belongs in the middle of the discussion.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">-------------------------</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">There's a lot more in the IETF draft that is aimed at allowing the current "end to end" to remain. My take, which includes the above and separate discussions with Deutsche Telekom & Telefonica, is that the telcos implementing IETF or ITU will de facto insist their interconnect partners support centralized control for QoS. To the extent I understand the engineering, that means the primary networks, at least in Europe, will not maintain the openness we seek. Yes, Duck Duck Go exists as an alternative, but Google is dominant. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">But Ted and others here understand the technology on a more sophisticated level than I do.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Dave</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">p.s Note from the real world. Something like this is going to be implemented by Ericsson, Nokia, Huawei, and ZTE, the four largest equipment vendors. China is a third of their market and the Chinese carriers want it. Ericsson's stock dropped $4B because their China sales were down for political reasons. The major European & US carriers have the same business incentives and probably the same requirements. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">So whatever we talk in standards, we'll get nowhere unless we find a way to get the carriers to go along. That might require government pressure or consumer pressure. I assure you that the management of Deutsche Telekom or Verizon care more about business than an abstraction like the open Internet. Discussions of "high order principles" will not influence them. We have to go beyond preaching to the converted, who are an ever smaller minority.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">pps The IETF draft is <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8655/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8655/</a> If someone could translate it into lay English, that would help the discussion </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Rosario,serif;font-size:20px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Rosario,serif;font-size:20px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Rosario,serif;font-size:20px"><br></span></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 6:05 AM Ted Hardie <<a href="mailto:ted.ietf@gmail.com" target="_blank">ted.ietf@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Dave,</div><div><br></div><div>The goals of the IETF work around Deterministic Networking are set out in RFC 8557; one key passage is here:</div><div><br></div><div><pre> The goals of Deterministic Networking are to (1) enable the migration
of applications with critical timing and reliability issues that
currently use special-purpose fieldbus technologies (High-Definition
Multimedia Interface (HDMI), Controller Area Network (CAN bus),
PROFIBUS [PROFIBUS], etc. ... even RS-232!) to packet technologies in
general and to IP in particular and (2) support both these new
applications and existing packet network applications over the same
physical network. In other words, a deterministic network is
backwards compatible with (capable of transporting) statistically
multiplexed traffic while preserving the properties of the accepted
deterministic flows.</pre></div></div><div>If you contrast this with the FG2030 vision (e.g. in the passages starting on page 24 of <a href="https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-T/focusgroups/net2030/Documents/Network_2030_Architecture-framework.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-T/focusgroups/net2030/Documents/Network_2030_Architecture-framework.pdf</a>), you'll see a very a different approach, especially in regards to backward compatibility and coexistence. The FG2030 vision presumes a completely new Internet architecture as a foundational aspect of the effort. DetNet and the work in the IETF are evolving the network we already have instead.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>As a result, I do not think deterministic networking in IETF terms is the same as the ITU-T effort that Elizabeth will touch on in the presentation. They share a focus on precision, but the contrasts are much stronger than that commonality, at least in my personal view.</div><div><br></div><div>best regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Ted Hardie<br></div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 11:17 PM Dave Burstein via Chapter-delegates <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">If we want to discuss the issue, let's use the less loaded term "deterministic networking," which is what the IETF calls this stuff. As Elizabeth notes, China Mobile and friends backed off the "New IP" idea a year ago.</div><div style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">What this is about is the telcos - including the big Europeans - wanting to control everything in order to charge more. They promise wonders of improved performance if they are put in charge, which I think is highly unlikely. (Vint has also spoken out.)</div><div style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">ISOC needs to keep to the real issues and not get caught up in the cold war. </div><div style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif"></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 3:30 PM Elizabeth Oluoch <<a href="mailto:oluoch@isoc.org" target="_blank">oluoch@isoc.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">Hello Dave,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">Thanks for your email. The session next week will touch on some of the questions you raise particularly around the evolution and status of the New IP proposal. Our aim is
to outline the claims in the New IP proposal and offer some of our perspectives on the implications of the proposal’s outcomes to the Internet. We hope that you are able to join.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">The New IP related questions in Study Group 13 (Future Networks) and Study Group 11(signalling, protocols) were not approved as new work items for the next study period at
the December 2020 plenaries of these study groups. Essentially there would be no discussion on these questions during this study period which was extended to March 2022. WTSA-20 will be held March 1-9, 2022. It doesn’t rule out the possibility of discussion
at WTSA-20. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">The “New IP” was a set of proposals submitted to ITU-T Focus Group on Technologies for 2030 (<a href="https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-T/focusgroups/net2030/Pages/default.aspx" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">Focus
Group 2030</span></a>) and TSAG. The proposals can be accessed on the ITU-T Liaison Statement on the IETF Datatracker here:
<a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1653/" target="_blank"><span style="color:black">https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1653/</span></a>. The documents below are in the attachment section of the Liaison Statement.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li style="color:black;margin-left:0in">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-GB">Document:</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-GB"> “<i>New IP, Shaping Future Network”: Propose to initiate the discussion of strategy
transformation for ITU-T”</i></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-GB"> (TSAG-C83)<u></u><u></u></span></li><li style="color:black;margin-left:0in">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-GB">Tutorial Presentation: “</span><i><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-GB">New IP, Shaping Future Network”
</span></i><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-GB">(TSAG-TD598).</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-GB">While the “New IP” term was modified to “</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">Future Vertical Communication
Networks," in ITU-T, the New IP initiative continues to be used outside of the ITU. Further, there have been several proposals submitted (some withdrawn) to ITU-T SGs in the early part of this year that reflected some of the main features/capabilities and,
or keywords that were in the New IP proposal. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">Please let us know if you have further question. Feel free to send them in advance as well.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">Elizabeth
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div style="border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Dave Burstein <<a href="mailto:daveb@dslprime.com" target="_blank">daveb@dslprime.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 5:20 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Audio Conferencing Conferencing Info <<a href="mailto:oluoch@isoc.org" target="_blank">oluoch@isoc.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Chapter-delegates] Internet Society information session on "New IP" | July 28, 07:00 UTC & 13:00 UTC<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Elizabeth<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">I haven't looked at this for a while. Last I heard, the US was blocking consensus in the Study Group. Has that changed?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Also, what are the actual proposals we are looking at? In particular, can you forward the draft that we're discussing or at least the ITU document number for me to download?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">(There were major changes since Olaf last wrote about this. Among other things, I don't think it's called New IP any longer. ETSI tells me the Chinese decided to drop the changes to IP
but I haven't confirmed that.)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Dave <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 12:43 PM Elizabeth Oluoch via Chapter-delegates <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:rgb(27,27,27);background:none 0% 0% repeat scroll white">Dear Chapter Leaders,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:rgb(27,27,27);background:none 0% 0% repeat scroll white"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:rgb(27,27,27)">Two years ago,
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">the ITU Telecommunication Standardization Sector (ITU-T) received a proposal to begin work
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:rgb(12,28,44)">to design a “new information and communications network with new protocol system” to meet the needs of a future network - the “</span><i><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">New
IP<span style="background:none 0% 0% repeat scroll white">, Shaping Future </span>Network”</span></i><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">
</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">proposal<b>. </b></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:rgb(12,28,44)">The Internet Society is closely following developments on “New IP.”
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:rgb(12,28,44)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Please join us for a virtual session on “<b>New IP” on Wednesday, July 28, either 07:00 UTC or 13:00 UTC</b>.
The agenda will include an overview of the </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">of the "New IP" proposal, the main issues in the proposal and implications for the Internet.
<b><u>Please note the sessions will not be recorded</u></b>. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:rgb(27,27,27)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">Speakers:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif">Dr. Hosein Badran, Director Internet Growth and Trust</span><u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif">Olaf, Kolkman, Principal, Technology, Policy and Advocacy</span><u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif">Andrei Robachevsky, Senior Director, Technology Programmes</span><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="https://internetsociety.wufoo.com/forms/w1ssgl830mkz73y/" target="_blank">Please register.</a> Zoom details
will be sent to registered participants. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">You can send questions to the speakers in advance to Elizabeth Oluoch at
<a href="mailto:oluoch@isoc.org" target="_blank">oluoch@isoc.org</a>.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">Thank you and best regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">Elizabeth</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">Elizabeth Oluoch – Do Canto</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">Director, International Institutions and Relations</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">Internet Society</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>
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