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<font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Thanks, Christian.<br>
My questions were answered. I also hope this discussion could be
useful for future such open letters from ISOC - both to reach out
to members (we didn't get this one in the mailing list of the
chapters leaders), but also to encourage them, esp. the chapters,
to seek ISOC's involvement in national policy and regulatory
discussions, where chapters might need access to ISOC's huge
resource pool, and it's brand and recognition, in order to
positively influence the outcome of such discussions.<br>
<br>
v/<br>
</font><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/20/21 11:19, Christian de
Larrinaga via Chapter-delegates wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:87v97dbfgl.fsf@firsthand.net">
<br>
Rather than toss the semantics of layering or not to layer, into a
melee of confusions.
<br>
<br>
Let's just agree that we are here because we want an open global
permissionless network of networks. So we can invent, deploy and
chat end to end under as much of our own rules and initiatives as
we please without being mediated, disintermediated, or interred in
a globular soup of bureaucratic haze. <br>
?
<br>
<br>
On that note I wonder if Veni and Richard feel their question(s)
has been answered?
<br>
<br>
C <br>
On Thu 20 May 2021 at 15:22, Andrew Sullivan via Chapter-delegates
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org"><chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org></a> wrote:
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi,
<br>
<br>
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 11:53:43AM +0200, Richard Hill via
Chapter-delegates wrote:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Well, this is a matter of interpreting
and applying the Internet Way of
<br>
Networking. And in any case, I think that it would be of
interest to the
<br>
Chapters to be made aware of what the staff is doing before it
is actually
<br>
done.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
There are two possible interpretations to this, and I'm
wondering which you mean. The first is that you think Chapters
might want to know these details in advance so that they can
have input to the course of action. The second is that Chapters
might want to know detailed plans of action because they're
curious, but do not expect to have any influence on the action.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I agree that in some cases a very short
deadline would be required. But it
<br>
seems to me that, in this case, a one-week notice would have
been feasible.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Regardless of how it seems to you, it was not. My understanding
is that this effort came together over a couple days, and was
influenced in part by the realities of committee meeting dates
and so forth.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">That may or may not be the case. There
might be people living outside Canada
<br>
that follow Canadian matters. And there might be people who
might comment on
<br>
the general issue raised.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Sure. And all of that is still possible, as this very
conversation reveals.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">As I've said before, the Internet Way of
Networking appears to me to apply
<br>
mainly to infrastructure
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I know you have said this, and I think I have asked what you
mean by "infrastructure". The basic problem with that line of
argument is that it suggests, without quite saying, that there
is a bright line where one can say, "This is not
infrastructure." But that turns out to be false, because of the
way the Internet encourages encapsulation and component re-use.
<br>
<br>
The basic trouble here is that the idea of tidy "layers" (often
somehow derived from the OSI model) is really a fiction. From
very early on, infrastructure was found in the application layer
-- DNS is clearly an application even though virtually nothing
else works without it. Is quic a transport or application-layer
technology? In some sense, it's both and neither. And of
course, huge chunks of the Internet (not just the Web) depend on
authentication services that are deeply embedded in certain
social medial platforms.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Regarding the issue at hand, if some
company uses the Internet to provide
<br>
what is in effect a broadcast service, then it might make
sense to regulate
<br>
that service just like any other broadcast service.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
It might, if the tidy category "broadcast" would stay still. But
it doesn't, and efforts by the Government of Canada to fix these
boundaries are as likely as not to require network and
network-services operators to impose (in Canada's case, even
more) arbitrary sludge on the network in an effort to conform
with poorly-conceived directives from a regulator that doesn't
always seem to have a solid grasp of the nature of the
Internet. <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">The only practical ways anyone has
been able to understand most of the
<br>
provisions (and they're not all in the bill, because a
number of the
<br>
rules would actually have to be made up by the CRTC after
the bill
<br>
became law) involves mucking with the operation of networks
themselves
<br>
in order to implement the goals.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Could you be more precise? What sort of "mucking"?
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Network service providers who are subject to fines if something
contrary to a regulation happens inevitably make the thing at
least hard to do in the network. This kind of activity
implicitly turns the Internet from a general-purpose technology
to one directed at specific purposes, and increases complexity
as a result. Obvious examples include various DNS-based filters
that get deployed and the ubiquitous use of geolocation for
service-provision determination.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">This problem got a lot worse with an
<br>
amendment that was introduced by the Minister in committee
(so the first
<br>
reading version online doesn't contain it yet).
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Where can I find that amendment?
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
You'd have to look through the minutes from committee, I
believe, which I think appear in Hansard (but I'm relying on
memory here as to process).
<br>
<br>
Best regards,
<br>
<br>
A
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
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<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Best regards,
Veni
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.veni.com">https://www.veni.com</a>
pgp:5BA1366E <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:veni@veni.com">veni@veni.com</a>
The opinions expressed above are those of the
author, not of any organizations, associated
with or related to him in any given way. </pre>
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