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Dear Heather,<br>
<br>
thank you for your kind responses. Please find my comments below:<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/11/2020 00:19, Heather West
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPunpCbmAYUhg=Vzd48=FxeGZV=L2uHOeOkdZ4hMVEK55XwZ7g@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr"><font size="2">[...]<br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">The current policy was unanimously approved to replace a previous version of the policy from 2011; as I understand it, clarifications to the 2011 policy were needed. That’s the history that I know right now - but I would be very surprised if CoI policies have not been in place for most of ISOC’s existence, given IRS requirements for nonprofits. In the case of current discussion, there was some disagreement amongst Trustees as to how to interpret the current policy - that is not ideal. We can clarify based on learnings from those discussions. We wanted to draw the community's attention to this while we work out what clarifications to the policy might be needed.</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<font size="2">Thank you for providing a bit of background to this.
To be clear, I agree that a conflict of interest policy is needed.
I just do not think that the conflict of interest policy as it is
now defined is fair towards all candidates. In fact, I believe it
is especially unfair towards chapter candidates. In my previous
email I proposed alternatives which I hope the Board of Trustees
will consider.<br>
<br>
</font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPunpCbmAYUhg=Vzd48=FxeGZV=L2uHOeOkdZ4hMVEK55XwZ7g@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr"><font size="2"><br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> * Why is there a focus on organisations that used to be, in the past,</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> referred to as the I-star organisations, organisations that were</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> viewed as friends, but now appear to be no longer? Why were more</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> "distant" organisations, like ITU, or the IEEE, or ACM not given as</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> an example?</span></font></p>
<font size="2"><br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">The examples in the CoI policy are only examples ("include, but are not limited to") - they are intended to be illustrative of the kinds of organizations that *may* be a conflict of interest. While the current CoI policy notes these are only examples, there may be a way to make that even more clear in the policy. I don’t know why those examples were chosen, but it’s likely because they were notable examples that many Trustees would be familiar with and thus able to use to think through potential conflicts of interest - you are correct that both are an important part of the wider Internet community that we work within, as are the other examples you note. </span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<font size="2">Understood. Perhaps I am reading too much into the
examples.<br>
<br>
</font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPunpCbmAYUhg=Vzd48=FxeGZV=L2uHOeOkdZ4hMVEK55XwZ7g@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr"><font size="2"><br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> * Why is there a mention of "individuals who are directly involved in</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> the policy development process of these organisations" instead of</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> referring to being in their leadership? There is no difference made</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> between being in the leadership of an organisation and contributing</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> benevolently to a working group.</span></font></p>
<font size="2"><br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">As I understand it, the CoI policy is intended to ensure that Trustees can participate in any number of organizations or related activities - we want to be able to draw Trustees from a wide pool (of course, as elected by members of the community). However, if a Trustee is part of the direct policymaking or governance of multiple organizations, then that can create a conflict of interest - what if a decision would benefit one and be to the detriment of another?</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
The problem is that a definition of "Leadership" is possible. For
example, one could define "Leadership" as being a Chair, Vice Chair,
Board member, Official Representative of a body that makes policy
that is likely to directly impact Internet Society Policy Advocacy.
<br>
But instead, there is this vague "directly involved in the policy
development process" which is not strictly definable. Does this
include being a member of an ICANN working group? Does it include
filing a comment in the Public Consultation process that ICANN uses
as a key way to collect input from the public? There is no hardline
definition of "directly involved in the policy development process"
and therefore this puts a very large number of people in a position
that if they want to be on the ISOC Board of Trustees, they need to
completely withdraw from *any* policy development.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPunpCbmAYUhg=Vzd48=FxeGZV=L2uHOeOkdZ4hMVEK55XwZ7g@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> We don’t want to put the Board or our Trustees in that difficult position. As I understand it, advising other organizations is not a conflict of interest, but determining policy for an organization in the same areas of engagement as ISOC creates the potential for problems (regardless of whether they are formally on a leadership team for that organization). The CoI policy does also have other examples in the document - for instance, full members of the IAB or members of the IESG are excluded from being Trustees due to ISOC's relationship with the IETF.
</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, but this over-protective attitude is actually exclusionary.
Conflict of interest policies in many organisations, especially
organisations that involve volunteers, enable the Board member to
make their decision to recuse themselves from discussions, not the
other way around. As I said, excluding someone from *all* ISOC
Trustee activity when there is a chance every few years that there
might be a conflict of interest in one decision process of the Board
of Trustees is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. How would
people active in IETF working groups like to be told that they
cannot be involved in the IETF (and not only the IAB or IESG who are
the leadership)? So you have to drop your IETF work if you want to
be on the ISOC Board of Trustees? It does not make sense, but that's
exactly what's being asked of volunteers regarding any other
organisation than the IETF.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPunpCbmAYUhg=Vzd48=FxeGZV=L2uHOeOkdZ4hMVEK55XwZ7g@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr"><font size="2"><br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> * Why is there an ill-conceived mention of "policy development"</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> relating to IGF? The Internet Governance Forum does not make any</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> policy, it is... a discussion forum - this sentence is embarrassing</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> for ISOC as it appears to point at ignorance of this basic point.</span></font></p>
<font size="2"><br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">This inclusion seems to create some confusion; I admit that I am less familiar with the workings of the IGF than some. But it has been noted that the MAG Chair appears to make policy for the IGF. In any case, the confusion on this point would seem to merit some clarification that participation in discussion forums are not conflicts as envisioned by the CoI policy (as I understand it).</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<font size="2">So this again needs to be clarified as being the
"Leadership" of the IGF and to define what that is. Does this mean
an MAG member is blocked from being a Trustee? Should ISOC Staff
be prevented from being MAG members too? In fact, should ISOC
prevent itself from having any direct input in the MAG? I see this
as a double edged sword. I remember the time when it was an asset
to have people who were in the inside tracks of the different
organisations in order to enhance collaboration - but it seems
that the policy is one of isolation now?<br>
<br>
</font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPunpCbmAYUhg=Vzd48=FxeGZV=L2uHOeOkdZ4hMVEK55XwZ7g@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr"><font size="2"><br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> * If deciding to open the can of worms, why not open it fully and also</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> include conflict of interests of individuals that work for large</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> corporations that are directly involved in Internet Governance -</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> corporations that could benefit from ISOC's "independent policy</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> views" advocacy on a National or International level? They get paid</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> by these corporations - surely that's a greater conflict of interest</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">> than the one of volunteers?</span></font></p>
<font size="2"><br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">If they were in the "board or leadership" of the organizations you mention, they would also likely be covered by the first sentence of this section. Corporations generally do not have formal policy development bodies the way volunteer organizations do, so the sentence about the policy development bodies doesn't apply. Depending on the kind of organization, and the role within the organization, it is possible that someone might be deemed to have a conflict of interest. I don’t know if that has come up in the past.</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I don't feel at ease targeting anyone, because this is not my aim,
but over years and years, the candidates that were selected by
Organisational Members came from the policy side of the
organisations. Again you say "Leadership" when the Conflict of
Interest says "engaged in policy". I took this as an example because
here too, I do not think it would be fair to block someone from
these Organisational Members to be barred from a position on the
ISOC BoT because their company was involved in policy that could
conflict.<br>
What is a policy counsel? Director of public policy? Technology
policy? Advocacy? How many companies have such people involved in
the ICANN policy development process? How many companies have
representatives that are involved on the MAG? How many develop
policy and interact with governments regarding the topics which the
Internet Society is addressing? <br>
That is why I again recommend we turn the table around and have
members of the BoT declare their interests and withdraw on the rare
cases when there is a conflict, rather than barring them from the
seat altogether. We *want* people on the Internet Society Board of
Trustees to have as large an address book and as much knowledge and
experience as possible. When they are not conflicted on the topic
discussed we want them to bring as much insight as possible. We want
them to have access to as many people as possible. We want support
from these companies. That is how you build a network, not by
putting barriers all around and blocking oneself into an ivory
tower. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPunpCbmAYUhg=Vzd48=FxeGZV=L2uHOeOkdZ4hMVEK55XwZ7g@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr"><font size="2"><br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">>The Conflict of Interest policy, as it currently stands, could prevent a</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">>lot of very competent people from taking on positions on the ISOC Board</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">>of Trustees.</span></font></p>
<font size="2"><br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">The intent of the CoI policy is to be as narrow as possible, while also ensuring that Trustees are making decisions in the best interest of ISOC. We agree that being overly restrictive of the activities of potential Trustees would be a mistake. But, again, it is important not to have a conflict between any Trustee’s position with ISOC and their formal role within another organization.</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<font size="2">That's were things are really wrong. I understand
that the ISOC Board of Trustees has fiduciary duty towards ISOC
and that is absolutely fine and is defined by law. But ISOC Board
of Trustees should make decisions in the best interest of the
*Mission* that ISOC has defined it will pursue. I dispute that
this should be in the best interest of ISOC itelf. Otherwise you
are now turning ISOC into a self serving organisation. Sometimes,
what is good for the Mission of ISOC might not be good for ISOC
itself.<br>
<br>
</font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPunpCbmAYUhg=Vzd48=FxeGZV=L2uHOeOkdZ4hMVEK55XwZ7g@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr"><font size="2"><br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">>1. Have a policy that allows all Board members to declare their</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">>interests publicly, for all to see, on a publicly accessible page, which</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">>can be updated regularly.</span></font></p>
<font size="2"><br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Trustees do declare their potential conflicts on a regular basis, using a standard form; as Chair of the Audit Committee, I collect and monitor them. This is another thing that the IRS asks about from a process perspective. There have been discussions about whether to post these publicly, there has not been agreement about whether this is always possible.</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
There are two things: declaring interests and declaring conflicts.
Declaring interests transparently helps others establish whether
there actually a conflict. Declaring only conflicts allows for
obfuscation of conflicts. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPunpCbmAYUhg=Vzd48=FxeGZV=L2uHOeOkdZ4hMVEK55XwZ7g@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr"><font size="2"><br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">>2. Have a policy that allow Board members to recuse themselves from</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">>discussions where their other commitments pose a conflict of Interest</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">>for this topic only. I understand that one or more members of the Board</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">>did exactly this during the PIR discussions.</span></font></p>
<font size="2"><br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">In most cases, the CoI policy calls for the recusal of a Trustee when a conflict arises. There is a very narrow set of circumstances wherein the conflict is structural in nature; in this case, the policy instead requires the person to choose between their role on the Board or within the other organization, as recusal would not adequately protect ISOC. The goal is to make these circumstances as rare as possible while remaining responsible, as Trustees, to ISOC.</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Understood. As you can see from my points above, we differ in this,
as I think we differ in where we put the bar for a structural
conflict, versus a topical conflict. A structural conflict exists,
in my opinion, when the organisations have opposite viewpoints in
all matters. A topical conflict exists on a topic by topic basis. I
maintain that the organisations which ISOC wants to protect itself
from are the wrong targets to label as having a structural conflict.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPunpCbmAYUhg=Vzd48=FxeGZV=L2uHOeOkdZ4hMVEK55XwZ7g@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr"><font size="2"><br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">>3. Have a policy that allows the ISOC Board of Trustees to be</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">>accountable to the ISOC Community, the channel for the Internet Society</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">>to continue to excel in its Mission as listed in</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">></span><a
href="https://www.internetsociety.org/mission/"
style="text-decoration:none" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(17,85,204);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">https://www.internetsociety.org/mission/</span></a><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> - so the Internet Society does</span></font></p>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">>not risk being used as a lobbying tool for vested interests?</span></font></p>
<font size="2"><br>
</font>
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">I’m not sure what kind of formal accountability you envision here, but I think that, generally, what you’re talking about is outside the scope of the CoI policy discussed here. I will say that I certainly see my role as a Trustee as furthering the ISOC mission, and working within the Board to ensure that ISOC remains focused on that mission - so we share a goal in that.</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<font size="2">+1 \ This will need to be taken up by a working group
outside the CoI policy.<br>
Kindest regards,<br>
<br>
Olivier<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPunpCbmAYUhg=Vzd48=FxeGZV=L2uHOeOkdZ4hMVEK55XwZ7g@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<p dir="ltr"
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">
</span></font></p>
<p style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font
size="2"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">
</span></font></p>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 11:39
AM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <<a href="mailto:ocl@gih.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ocl@gih.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> Dear Heather,<br>
<br>
thank you for your kind message and thank you for raising
the issue of Conflict of Interest Policy with Chapters. This
email is meant to share my personal comments regarding the
policy as it currently stands and to question how this was
established.<br>
<br>
First, how it was established. From your email, it appears
that this conflict of interest policy was adopted
unanimously by the Board of Trustees earlier this year -
without any formal input from the very people affected by
the policy, that is the three communities from which
candidates on the Board of Trustees are drawn. Whilst I
agree that, in principle, a Conflict of Interest policy is
needed in any organisation, I wonder what was the trigger
for this sudden waking of the sleeping dragon after so many
years where the matter had not been addressed, and there did
not appear to have been cause for concern. Why were the
relevant communities not consulted?<br>
<br>
Why do I call this a sleeping dragon? Because whilst I agree
with you that the "Independent Policy View" section needs
further review, it's a bit late to involve Chapters now that
the section's already been passed by the Board. Plus, it
awakens all sorts of questions, which I'll point out below.<br>
<br>
So let's see the two main paragraphs:<br>
<br>
<i><font color="#0000ff"><span
style="font-size:18.4px;font-family:sans-serif">Individuals
in the board or the leadership of organizations that
operate in ISOC’s areas of </span><span
style="font-size:18.4px;font-family:sans-serif">eng</span><span
style="font-size:18.4px;font-family:sans-serif">agement
shall not serve as trustees, unless the engagement is
on behalf of or at the request of </span><span
style="font-size:18.4px;font-family:sans-serif">ISOC’s
Board. <font color="#ff0000">Individuals who are
directly involved in the policy development process
of these </font></span><span
style="font-size:18.4px;font-family:sans-serif"><font
color="#ff0000">organizations</font> shall not serve
as Interested Parties. These organi</span><span
style="font-size:18.4px;font-family:sans-serif">zations
include, but are not limited to, </span><span
style="font-size:18.4px;font-family:sans-serif">ICANN
(Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers)
and the IGF (Internet </span><span
style="font-size:18.4px;font-family:sans-serif">Governance
Forum).<br>
<br>
</span><span
style="font-size:18.4px;font-family:sans-serif">Chapters</span><span
style="font-size:18.4px;font-family:sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Given ISOC’s relation with its chapters, members of
the leadership of an ISOC chapter, which </span><span
style="font-size:18.4px;font-family:sans-serif">include
th</span></font></i><span
style="font-size:18.4px;font-family:sans-serif"><i><font
color="#0000ff">e chapter’s president and treasurer,
shall not serve as ISOC trustees</font></i><br>
<br>
I have a serious problem with the specific mentioning and
therefore targeting of ICANN and IGF. This is not only
because I am involved as a volunteer in these two
organisations, but because it unfairly targets the
involvement of most of our Chapter members in Internet
Governance, whether at ICANN or IGF - and an overwhelming
majority of Chapter members are involved as volunteers in
these organisations. <b><br>
<br>
I would go further that their involvement in these
organisations create the very fabric that the
multistakeholder model is built on. Without this, there
is no multistakeholder model. Is this what the Internet
Society wants?</b><br>
</span>
<ul>
<li><span style="font-size:18.4px;font-family:sans-serif">Why
is there a focus on organisations that used to be, in
the past, referred to as the I-star organisations,
organisations that were viewed as friends, but now
appear to be no longer? Why were more "distant"
organisations, like ITU, or the IEEE, or ACM not given
as an example?<br>
</span></li>
<li><span style="font-size:18.4px;font-family:sans-serif">Why
is there a mention of "individuals who are directly
involved in the policy development process of these
organisations" instead of referring to being in their
leadership? There is no difference made between being
in the leadership of an organisation and contributing
benevolently to a working group.<br>
</span></li>
<li><span style="font-size:18.4px;font-family:sans-serif">Why
is there an ill-conceived mention of "policy
development" relating to IGF? The Internet Governance
Forum does not make any policy, it is... a discussion
forum - this sentence is embarrassing for ISOC as it
appears to point at ignorance of this basic point.<br>
</span></li>
<li><span style="font-size:18.4px;font-family:sans-serif">If
deciding to open the can of worms, why not open it
fully and also include conflict of interests of
individuals that <font color="#ff0000">work </font>for
large corporations that are directly involved in
Internet Governance - corporations that could benefit
from ISOC's "independent policy views" advocacy on a
National or International level? They get paid by
these corporations - surely that's a greater conflict
of interest than the one of volunteers?<br>
</span></li>
</ul>
<p>The Conflict of Interest policy, as it currently stands,
could prevent a lot of very competent people from taking
on positions on the ISOC Board of Trustees. This blanket
ban throws the baby out with the bath water. Worse: it is
discriminatory towards a specific type of volunteer. Is
this really what ISOC wants? <br>
</p>
<p>Instead of a policy that stops people from taking office
altogether, if there is a deep concern in the ISOC Board
of Trustees that conflicts of interest are a strong
reality that needs to be addressed, perhaps is it time to:</p>
<p>1. Have a policy that allows all Board members to declare
their interests publicly, for all to see, on a publicly
accessible page, which can be updated regularly.</p>
<p>2. Have a policy that allow Board members to recuse
themselves from discussions where their other commitments
pose a conflict of Interest for this topic only. I
understand that one or more members of the Board did
exactly this during the PIR discussions.</p>
<p>3. Have a policy that allows the ISOC Board of Trustees
to be accountable to the ISOC Community, the channel for
the Internet Society to continue to excel in its Mission
as listed in <a
href="https://www.internetsociety.org/mission/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.internetsociety.org/mission/</a>
- so the Internet Society does not risk being used as a
lobbying tool for vested interests?<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>As I said, these are my personal views. I accept that I
might be out of line, but my interest here is to safeguard
the Internet multistakeholder model and when I see a
friendly organisation wandering towards fragmenting this
vulnerable ecosystem into "us against them" amongst its
friends, I cannot keep my mouth shut.</p>
<p>Kindest regards,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Olivier<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div>On 04/11/2020 01:35, Heather West via Chapter-delegates
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
As Chair of the Internet Society Audit Committee, I
wanted to share an update with you.<br>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
As you may know, the Audit Committee reviews the
Conflict of Interest forms filed by members of the
Board of Trustees and officers of the Internet
Society to ensure that we are in compliance with our
Conflict of Interest (“CoI”) policy.<br>
<br>
The CoI policy states that members of the Board of
Trustees cannot hold a position in the policy
development process in another organization
operating in the Internet Society’s areas of
engagement, and we are evaluating a situation where
this restriction may be relevant. One of our
Trustees has been appointed as a non-voting member
to the GSNO Council, the Generic Names Supporting
Organization – a policy-development body that
develops and recommends policies relating to generic
top-level domains (gTLDs) to the ICANN Board.<br>
<br>
The Internet Society has a long history of
collaborating with our diverse community from around
the world, and is committed to having vibrant and
robust global engagement. We work across countries
and cultures and seek diverse cross-organizational
expertise. This makes us stronger—sound practices
and clear policies are a critical part of that.<br>
<br>
We recognize that the expertise of our trustees is
also valued by other groups. At the same time, our
community is best served when board members are able
to maintain their independence from other
organizational interests that are in the Internet
Society’s areas of engagement.<br>
<br>
While our CoI policy was adopted unanimously by the
Board of Trustees earlier this year, the Board has
determined that a section addressing a conflict
under the “Independent Policy View” section needs
further review. The Governance Committee will
evaluate this section with the goal of providing its
assessment and recommendations to the Board for
further discussion. We anticipate this work will be
concluded by the time of our next Board of Trustees
meeting.<br>
<br>
Below is the link to our Conflict of Interest policy
on the Internet Society website.<span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div><a
href="https://www.internetsociety.org/coi-policy/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.internetsociety.org/coi-policy/</a> <span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sincerely,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Heather West<br>
Audit Committee, Chair, Internet Society Board of
Trustees</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">=========== Español =========== </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Como presidente del Comité de
Auditoría de Internet Society, quería compartir una
actualización con ustedes.<br>
<br>
Como saben, el Comité de Auditoría revisa los
formularios de Conflicto de Interés presentados por
miembros de la Junta Directiva y funcionarios de
Internet Society para asegurarse de que cumplimos
con nuestra política de Conflicto de
Interés ("CoI").<br>
<br>
La política de CoI establece que los miembros de la
Junta Directiva no pueden ocupar un puesto en el
proceso de desarrollo de políticas en otra
organización que opere en las áreas de participación
de Internet Society, y estamos evaluando una
situación en la que esta restricción puede ser
relevante. Un integrante de la Junta Directiva ha
sido designado como miembro sin derecho a voto
del Consejo de GSNO, la Organización de Apoyo para
Nombres Genéricos, un organismo de desarrollo de
políticas que desarrolla y recomienda políticas
relacionadas con los dominios genéricos de nivel
superior (gTLD) a la Junta de ICANN.<br>
<br>
Internet Society tiene un largo historial de
colaboración con nuestra diversa comunidad de todo
el mundo y está comprometida a tener un compromiso
global vibrante y sólido. Trabajamos en distintos
países y culturas y buscamos diversos conocimientos
especializados entre organizaciones. Esto nos hace
más fuertes: las prácticas sólidas y las políticas
claras son una parte fundamental de eso.<br>
<br>
Reconocemos que la experiencia de los integrantes de
nuestra Junta Directiva también es valorada por
otros grupos. Al mismo tiempo, se sirve mejor
a nuestra comunidad cuando los miembros de la Junta
pueden mantener su independencia de otros intereses
organizacionales que se encuentran en las áreas de
participación de Internet Society.<br>
<br>
Si bien nuestra política de CoI fue adoptada por
unanimidad por la Junta Directiva a principios de
este año, la Junta ha determinado que una sección
que aborda un conflicto en la sección "Opinión de la
política independiente" necesita más revisión.
El Comité de Gobierno evaluará esta sección con el
objetivo de proporcionar su evaluación y
recomendaciones a la Junta para su posterior
discusión. Anticipamos que este trabajo concluirá en
el momento de nuestra próxima reunión de la Junta
Directiva.<br>
<br>
A continuación se muestra el enlace a nuestra
política de Conflicto de Interés en el sitio web de
Internet Society.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://www.internetsociety.org/coi-policy/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.internetsociety.org/coi-policy/</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sinceramente,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Heather West</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Presidente, Comité de Auditoría,
Junta Directiva de Internet Society </p>
<div><br>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">=========== Français ===========</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR">En tant que
président du comité d'audit de l'Internet Society,
je voudrais vous faire part d'une mise à jour.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR">Comme vous le
savez peut-être, le comité d'audit examine les
formulaires de conflit d'intérêt remplis par les
membres du conseil d'administration et les
dirigeants de l'Internet Society afin de s'assurer
que nous sommes en conformité avec notre
politique, en matière de conflit d'intérêt
("CoI").</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR">La politique en
matière de conflits d'intérêts stipule que les
membres du conseil d'administration ne peuvent pas
occuper de poste dans le processus d'élaboration
des politiques d'une autre organisation opérant
dans les domaines d'engagement de l'Internet
Society, et nous évaluons actuellement une
situation dans laquelle cette restriction pourrait
s’avérer pertinente. L'un de nos administrateurs a
été nommé membre sans droit de vote du Conseil du
GSNO, soit l'Organisation de soutien des noms
génériques - un organe d'élaboration des
politiques qui élabore et recommande au conseil
d'administration de l'ICANN des politiques
relatives aux domaines génériques de premier
niveau (gTLD).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR">L'Internet
Society collabore depuis longtemps avec notre
communauté diversifiée du monde entier, et
s'engage à avoir un engagement mondial dynamique
et solide. Nous travaillons à travers les pays et
les cultures et recherchons une expertise
transversale diversifiée. Cela nous permet d'avoir
des pratiques plus solides - et des politiques
claires sont un élément essentiel dans cette
démarche.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR">Nous
reconnaissons que l'expertise de nos
administrateurs est également appréciée par
d'autres groupes. En même temps, notre communauté
est mieux servie lorsque les membres du conseil
d'administration sont capables de maintenir leur
indépendance par rapport aux intérêts d’autres
organisations qui sont dans les domaines
d'engagement de l'Internet Society.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR">Bien que notre
politique de CoI ait été adoptée à l'unanimité par
le conseil d'administration au début de cette
année, le conseil a déterminé qu'une section
traitant d'un conflit dans la section "Independent
Policy View" doit faire l'objet d'un examen plus
approfondi. Le comité de gouvernance évaluera
cette section dans le but de fournir son
évaluation et ses recommandations au conseil
d'administration pour une discussion plus
approfondie. Nous prévoyons que ce travail sera
terminé d'ici la prochaine réunion du conseil
d'administration.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR">Vous trouverez
ci-dessous le lien vers notre politique en matière
de conflits d'intérêts sur le site web de
l'Internet Society.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://www.internetsociety.org/coi-policy/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.internetsociety.org/coi-policy/</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
lang="FR">Sincèrement,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
lang="FR">Heather West</span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
lang="FR">Président du comité d'audit, du conseil
d'administration de l'Internet Society</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
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