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    <font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">How did this discussion
      moved from the chapter delegates to the Internet policy list? I've
      removed the internetpolicy, and left only chapter delegates in
      this current email.<br>
      <br>
      v/<br>
    </font><br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/22/20 08:57, Christian de
      Larrinaga via InternetPolicy wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:97e9b707-f557-1105-6d05-cce5b1496e99@firsthand.net">Christine,
      Is there not a chapter presidents list which is private?
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 22/07/2020 09:40, Christine Saegesser via InternetPolicy wrote:
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">Dear Ayden,
        <br>
        <br>
        The Chapter-Delegates list is a list that was created for
        current Internet Society Chapter leaders to have a place to get
        information relevant to their Chapter, to their leadership
        positions and a place for them to discuss and share issues
        pertinent to the Internet Society Chapter community.
        <br>
          The list was intended to be a private discussion place for
        current leaders only and has been set up like that in 2005. The
        archive was therefore also private to current list members.
        <br>
        It was brought to our attention that the list archive was by
        mistake made public in 2009.
        <br>
        We set it back to the original intended status.
        <br>
          If the Chapter leaders prefer to have this archive public, we
        can surely turn this back, but since this is ‘their’ list, we
        will ask the list.
        <br>
        <br>
        Best,
        <br>
        <br>
        Christine
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">On 21. Jul 2020, at 15:32, Ayden
          Férdeline via InternetPolicy
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org"><internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org></a> wrote:
          <br>
          <br>
          Just following up on why the archives for this particular list
          have been password protected when they were, for many years,
          public.
          <br>
          <br>
          A response from ISOC staff would be appreciated. Thank you.
          <br>
          <br>
          Ayden Férdeline
          <br>
          <br>
          ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
          <br>
          On Wednesday, 15 July 2020 18:20, Ayden Férdeline via
          InternetPolicy <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org"><internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org></a> wrote:
          <br>
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite">Dear Judith,
            <br>
            <br>
            I have been able to read the archives to the Chapter
            Delegates list for many years. I have never been subscribed
            to that list. The archives have not been private; only
            posting to the list was private. So I would like to know why
            this change was made.
            <br>
            <br>
            Incidentally, the archives to this public list have always
            been private, though I have never understood why.
            <br>
            <br>
            Ayden Férdeline
            <br>
            <br>
            ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
            <br>
            On Wednesday, 15 July 2020 18:16, Judith Hellerstein via
            InternetPolicy <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org">internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org</a> wrote:
            <br>
            <br>
            <blockquote type="cite">All,
              <br>
              Chapter delegates has always been a private list.  It can
              only be viewed by
              <br>
              being who are directors or other officers of chapters.
              This list is Internet
              <br>
              Policy and has been a public list since creation
              <br>
              Best,
              <br>
              Judith
              <br>
              Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO
              <br>
              Hellerstein & Associates
              <br>
              3001 Veazey Terrace NW, Washington DC 20008
              <br>
              Phone: (202) 362-5139 Skype ID: judithhellerstein
              <br>
              Mobile/Whats app: +1202-333-6517
              <br>
              E-mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com">Judith@jhellerstein.com</a> Website:
              <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.jhellerstein.com">www.jhellerstein.com</a>
              <br>
              Linked In: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/">www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/</a>
              <br>
              Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide
              <br>
              On 7/15/2020 12:12 PM, Ayden Férdeline via InternetPolicy
              wrote:
              <br>
              <br>
              <blockquote type="cite">I have noticed that the Chapter
                Delegates archives are now password protected and
                available only to list subscribers. As I am not
                subscribed to that mailing list, I am therefore unable
                to view the archives to understand the context behind
                this thread and to read it in its entirety. Until very
                recently this list was public, and had been for a number
                of years, so I am unsure if this change to the archives
                was intentional or not -- but I would like to ask that
                the archives be made publicly accessible again please.
                <br>
                Thank you.
                <br>
                Ayden Férdeline
                <br>
                ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
                <br>
                On Monday, 13 July 2020 20:24, Richard Hill via
                InternetPolicy <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org">internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org</a> wrote:
                <br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">Thank you for this. Please see
                  embedded comments below.
                  <br>
                  Best,
                  <br>
                  Richard
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">-----Original Message-----
                    <br>
                    From: Chapter-delegates [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:chapter-delegates">mailto:chapter-delegates</a>-
                    <br>
                    <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bounces@elists.isoc.org">bounces@elists.isoc.org</a>] On Behalf Of Andrew
                    Sullivan via Chapter-
                    <br>
                    delegates
                    <br>
                    Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 19:22
                    <br>
                    To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>
                    <br>
                    Subject: Re: [Chapter-delegates] Bank Accounts was -
                    deadline for admin
                    <br>
                    funding
                    <br>
                    On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 10:22:26PM +0530,
                    sivasubramanian muthusamy
                    <br>
                    wrote:
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    <blockquote type="cite">The problems relate to ISOC
                      seeing two "sides", and the notion of
                      <br>
                      separation as reflected in "each other party".
                      Chapters are a part of
                      <br>
                      the
                      <br>
                      Internet Society, not a different 'side' or
                      another 'party'. We are
                      <br>
                      the
                      <br>
                      Internet Society. At times it felt more like
                      Chapters are a little
                      <br>
                      disconnected.
                      <br>
                      Ah, I see what you mean. Let me respond to that a
                      little, then.
                      <br>
                      One of the first points I made as strongly as I
                      could to the whole
                      <br>
                      staff -- there was an all staff meeting organized
                      for a month after I
                      <br>
                      took this job -- was that our nature is in our
                      name. We are not the
                      <br>
                      Internet Bossypants or the Internet People In
                      Charge. We are the
                      <br>
                      Internet Society, and in a society, different
                      people have different
                      <br>
                      roles. The role for the staff organization is to
                      help this Society
                      <br>
                      succeed in its goals, which are expressed right
                      there in our Mission.
                      <br>
                      Many of you have heard me repeat this on other
                      occasions, and I believe
                      <br>
                      it is absolutely the case. I totally agree with
                      you that Chapters are
                      <br>
                      an important constituent part (not all of, but
                      critical part of) the
                      <br>
                      Internet Society.
                      <br>
                      Actions speak louder than words. As you know, I
                      was disappointed by the
                      <br>
                      Board's reactions to the advice from the Chapters
                      Advisory Council regarding
                      <br>
                      the proposed sale of PRI/.ORG.
                      <br>
                    </blockquote>
                    The Internet is a network of networks, with each
                    part being legally and
                    <br>
                    organizationally distinct and yet somehow
                    interdependent in a way that
                    <br>
                    depends on rules (protocols) and common interest; it
                    is not strange to
                    <br>
                    make those distinctions while simultaneously
                    recognizing the
                    <br>
                    relationship. In a similar way, Chapters are a
                    critical part of the
                    <br>
                    Internet Society and yet each is distinct from it.
                    And this is in part
                    <br>
                    a legal fact: in order for there to be chapters, and
                    for them to be in
                    <br>
                    many different countries with different legal
                    regimes, they need to be
                    <br>
                    independent entities. Moreover, it is desirable to
                    the chapters as near
                    <br>
                    as I can tell: the chapters want to be independent
                    parts of the
                    <br>
                    Internet Society and not subject to central
                    discipline except on
                    <br>
                    matters where we all have come to agreement. (The
                    "where we have come
                    <br>
                    to agreement" is what the PDP is for, I note, and is
                    why PDP-handled
                    <br>
                    positions are adopted ultimately by the Board of
                    Trustees.)
                    <br>
                    We could be organized differently. For instance, we
                    could have an
                    <br>
                    organization that formally subsumes the chapters as
                    elements of the
                    <br>
                    Internet Society as legally constituted (often
                    called in English
                    <br>
                    "branches"), which would have the advantage of not
                    needing formal
                    <br>
                    agreements but a pretty considerable disadvantage in
                    terms of diversity
                    <br>
                    of views. We could have a completely
                    centrally-directed system without
                    <br>
                    the scope for debate and disagreement we have. We
                    could have a totally
                    <br>
                    professionalized Internet Society and simply form
                    alliances and
                    <br>
                    partnerships with other organizations that resemble
                    the current
                    <br>
                    Chapters, the way we sometimes do with other
                    Internet-focussed
                    <br>
                    organizations.
                    <br>
                    Or ISOC could be a membership organization, where
                    the members have the final
                    <br>
                    say, through an annual general assembly or whatever.
                    "Members" could be
                    <br>
                    individuals, or they could be chapters. Hopefully
                    the group that will (is?)
                    <br>
                    considering changes to the Bylaws might consider
                    such possibilities.
                    <br>
                  </blockquote>
                  By the way, what is the status of that group and the
                  timeline for
                  <br>
                  discussions?
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">But I think the model we have
                    is the best one because
                    <br>
                    it allows us to coalesce around our common Mission
                    and yet express a
                    <br>
                    great diversity of local needs and interests as
                    related to that
                    <br>
                    Mission.
                    <br>
                    But it seems to me that to do that, we have to be
                    quite explicit about
                    <br>
                    the formal independence of each part of the overall
                    organization and
                    <br>
                    what the relationships are. So, as John More says
                    elsewhere in this
                    <br>
                    thread, to me the clarity on these matters is a
                    feature. It is true
                    <br>
                    that the formality feels less "familial" than
                    perhaps a another
                    <br>
                    arrangement would feel. But we are facing big
                    challenges to the
                    <br>
                    Internet. There are lots of forces -- including
                    national governments,
                    <br>
                    international treaty organizations, and large
                    multinational companies -
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    -   that want to take away the Internet and replace
                    it with a pale
                    <br>
                        simulacrum. That simulacrum-Internet (what I've
                    started calling
                    <br>
                        pretendernet) removes the initiative and control
                    from the end points
                    <br>
                        and puts it in the hands of centralizers who
                    want to treat all the
                    <br>
                        users of the network as hapless sheep-consumers.
                    <br>
                    <br>
                  </blockquote>
                  It appears to me that the private sector has been
                  quite efficient at making
                  <br>
                  that happen. And I'm not the only one who thinks that,
                  take a look at:
                  <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/07/01/1004725/redesign-internet-apps-n">https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/07/01/1004725/redesign-internet-apps-n</a>
                  <br>
                  o-one-controls-data-privacy-innovation-cloud/
                  <br>
                  Here are some quotations from that article:
                  <br>
                  "Governments may have struggled to regulate the
                  internet, but new sovereigns
                  <br>
                  have taken over instead. Barlow's "home of Mind" is
                  ruled today by the likes
                  <br>
                  of Google, Facebook, Amazon, Alibaba, Tencent, and
                  Baidu-a small handful of
                  <br>
                  the biggest companies on earth."
                  <br>
                  "The dominance of a few companies, and the ad-tech
                  industry that supports
                  <br>
                  them, has distorted the way we communicate-pulling
                  public discourse into a
                  <br>
                  gravity well of hate speech and misinformation-and
                  upended basic norms of
                  <br>
                  privacy. There are few places online beyond the reach
                  of these tech giants,
                  <br>
                  and few apps or services that thrive outside of their
                  ecosystems."
                  <br>
                  "There is an economic problem too. The effective
                  monopoly of these firms
                  <br>
                  stifles the kind of innovation that spawned them in
                  the first place. It is
                  <br>
                  no coincidence that Google, Facebook, and Amazon were
                  founded back when
                  <br>
                  Barlow's cyberspace was still a thing."
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">I think we are all
                    <br>
                    opposed to that, and I think we need to be strong in
                    the face of such a
                    <br>
                    challenge.
                    <br>
                    Agreed. So, once again, I invite ISOC to join the
                    coalition of those who
                    <br>
                    oppose using free trade agreements, which are
                    negotiated in secret by
                    <br>
                    governments, to make binding international rules
                    that will enshrine exactly
                    <br>
                    what we don't want: the continuing drift to the
                    "pretendernet", that is
                    <br>
                    towards the simulacrum of the Internet we actually
                    want.
                    <br>
                    Clear and empowering agreements
                    <br>
                    among ourselves is one such form of strength, as
                    long as we recognize
                    <br>
                    that that is why we are entering into agreement in
                    the first place.
                    <br>
                    Nothing is so bad for fighting a common enemy as
                    dissention in one's
                    <br>
                    own forces.
                    <br>
                    Agreed. And this underscores the need for broad
                    consultation within ISOC
                    <br>
                    whenever important decisions are going to be made.
                    <br>
                    I want to make sure the chapter charters are the
                    means of
                    <br>
                    expressing our common bonds so that we can face in
                    unity those who want
                    <br>
                    to ruin the Internet for everyone.
                    <br>
                    Best regards,
                    <br>
                    A
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    Andrew Sullivan
                    <br>
                    President & CEO, Internet Society
                    <br>
                    <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sullivan@isoc.org">sullivan@isoc.org</a>
                    <br>
                    +1 416 731 1261
                    <br>
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                View the Internet Society Code of Conduct:
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              View the Internet Society Code of Conduct:
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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            View the Internet Society Code of Conduct:
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          View the Internet Society Code of Conduct:
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        View the Internet Society Code of Conduct:
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      and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
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      -
      <br>
      View the Internet Society Code of Conduct:
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    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 

Best regards, 
Veni
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.veni.com">https://www.veni.com</a>
pgp:5BA1366E <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:veni@veni.com">veni@veni.com</a>

The opinions expressed above are those of the 
author, not of any organizations, associated 
with or related to him in any given way. </pre>
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