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    <p>Yes this is not about sanctifying particular protocols whether it
      be "IP" or "TCP" or even "QUIC".  This is about basic principles
      and properties needed for an open Internetwork for everyone to
      enjoy and participate through permissionless innovation.<br>
    </p>
    <p>C<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/07/2020 15:03, Paul Brooks via
      Chapter-delegates wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:05e99333-875d-29fd-8f3d-46f57ab0be8c@internet.org.au">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Let me take a Devils Advocate
        position for a moment, preaching to the converted...</div>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
      </div>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/07/2020 9:10 am, Dave Burstein
        via Chapter-delegates wrote:</div>
      <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAAUuzMTp+50QHQR9-be6fojrJmraXMa-pfTuCqZ_=GXaixZkGg@mail.gmail.com">
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            <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
              ms,sans-serif">But what happens if air traffic control in
              Hamburg (on DT's network) wants to coordinate with ATC in
              Lyon, on Orange/FT. There's no way today to guarantee
              performance across networks, although the IEFT has long
              had solutions. The same problem occurs with
              multi-player Pokemon Go when one player is on DT and the
              second on Vodafone.</div>
            <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
              ms,sans-serif"><br>
            </div>
            <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
              ms,sans-serif">To solve that problem, the telcos want to
              (gradually) dump TCP-IP in favor of a tightly controlled
              "deterministic network." TCP-IP has proven its ability to
              adapt and scale. I think the efficiency claims will not be
              realized and the cost much higher. In theoretical
              discussions in standards, the new system works perfectly.
              I live in the real world. <br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <p>Dave - are we forgetting the impact of the general public user,
        and application deployers, and 'the market' inertia in all this?
        <br>
      </p>
      <p>We - and 'they' - used to have such a deterministic network
        system. It was called ATM. Before that we also had a
        deterministic network system - clear channel SDH/SONET
        transmission services. For a while there were parallel global
        and national ATM backbones and IP backbones. There were
        IP-over-ATM backbones which were supposed to provide determinism
        and time-base slicing. There were 'ATM Switched Virtual
        Circuits' that never actually switched in practice. Over time
        the Internet and IP became dominant. Why?</p>
      <p> ATM commercial services didn't die off because they were
        inherently technically inferior (although they were), they died
        off due to lack of customer demand, which lead to a lack of
        revenue. ATM gear was more expensive, services were more
        expensive and inflexible, and actual 'deterministic' services
        even more so - the user-base voted with their feet and wallets
        and ignored 'proper deterministic' expensive networks in favour
        of those good-enough-in-practice more flexible cheaper systems.
        It didn't matter how 'superior' it was touted, nobody wants to
        expend big funds building infrastructure that has no customer
        demand.<br>
      </p>
      <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAAUuzMTp+50QHQR9-be6fojrJmraXMa-pfTuCqZ_=GXaixZkGg@mail.gmail.com">
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          <div dir="ltr"><br>
            <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
              ms,sans-serif"> TCP-IP will gradually be replaced by an
              alternative that is designed for QoS/network slicing
              because the carriers believe they will be paid for SLAs
              and guaranteed performance. This is desired by security
              agencies and the carriers think they can sell it to
              others. They smell $billions and intend to push it
              through. Like everything else in telecom, the Chinese will
              be the first to a large build, but Telefonica, DT and
              others intend to move forward.</div>
            <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
              ms,sans-serif"><br>
            </div>
          </div>
          <div>
            <div class="gmail_default"
              style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">
              It will take at least 3 years for this to become practical
              to deploy and more likely 5-7. </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <p>There is now an enormous installed base of IP-based
        applications and systems, developers who understand how to build
        applications that communicate with IP, investment in codebase
        that relies on sockets, ports, IP addresses and name resolution
        - heck, we haven't been able to replace IPv4 with IPv6 in *two
        decades*, and thats without any concerted pushback. For anything
        to be deployed inside a decade, it will need to be standardised,
        ratified, built into routers, debugged, gather commercial
        acceptance, AND have some form of translation/convergence shim
        invented so that three decades of operating systems, services,
        browsers, chat apps etc don't need to be thrown out the window.
        Whatever comes out it won't 'kill off TCP/IP' until a decade
        after it is built into native Windows, Linux, IOS and Android
        drivers AND all the applications people use today. Otherwise,
        whatever 'they' invent will end up being an expensive set of
        deterministic switched-virtual-circuit layer1/layer2 network, on
        which 'the market' and customers will run TCP/IP as an overlay,
        because nobody in user-land will want to re-invent the
        application wheels, or the entire ecosystem that it supports.</p>
      <p>Carriers might believe they will be paid extra $$$ and
        $billions for SLAs and guaranteed performance, but beliefs don't
        make it so - we can point to decades of actual measured customer
        behaviour, from the failure of ATM to why so few customers ever
        buy 'business grade' services even when they are available, to
        why so many people take slower roads to bypass a highway with
        tolls.<br>
      </p>
      <p>One thing I know - we won't 'win' if we frame our arguments as
        'defending TCP/IP and the Internet'. The moment we talk of
        'defending' something, others will wonder why we're trying so
        hard to defend something if it is so obviously superior. We
        won't 'win' if we focus on better technicals, or more open
        development methods. We won't 'win' if we treat it as a
        adversarial 'fight'.<br>
      </p>
      <p>The best argument I've found against the 'telehealth needs
        guaranteed QOS networks' is to quietly ask the person whether,
        even if such a network existed, they would be happy going under
        the anaesthetic on the table knowing the surgeon was on the
        other side of the country, given how frequently their mobile
        phone drops out and how often she reads about networks being
        taken offline by trench-diggers - and how comfortable she
        thought health insurers and courts would be with a 'QOS
        guarantee certificate' from the carrier. And how comfortable the
        network owners will be if telehealth is the only lonely use-case
        for the expensive shiny network, because everything else that
        doesn't need the QOS guarantees is on a cheaper parallel
        competing network.<br>
      </p>
      <p>We *may* head it off, if we can highlight that all history
        shows that proper determinism is uncommercial - the extra
        $billions they dream of isn't there - even if they build
        something out of non-IP, unless it is priced at Internet
        commercials or cheaper, it is likely to be an expensive,
        embarrassing white-elephant with no customers.</p>
      <p> We *may* prevail if we approach it as 'helping them to avoid
        their embarrassment'. Risk of embarrassing/noncommercial
        expensive failure is a better motivator for no-progress and for
        programs being quietly abandoned than the prospect of a fight.</p>
      <p>Best regards,</p>
      <p>Paul.<br>
      </p>
      <p><br>
      </p>
      <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAAUuzMTp+50QHQR9-be6fojrJmraXMa-pfTuCqZ_=GXaixZkGg@mail.gmail.com">
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          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>
            <div class="gmail_default"
              style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">But
              if we think this is not a desirable long term future for
              the net, we have to be very public and make the issues
              clear. Olaf's paper is sensible but oblique, and our
              beliefs are invisible in places like Focus Group 2030 and
              the other places - especially 3GPP & ETSI - where
              decisions are being made. (I sometimes speak to it, but
              have to earn a living and haven't had much time.)</div>
            <div class="gmail_default"
              style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif"><br>
            </div>
            <div class="gmail_default"
              style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">Accurate
              information is not enough to win a political battle with
              literally $trillions of companies and their governments
              are on the other side.</div>
            <div class="gmail_default"
              style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif"><br>
            </div>
            <div class="gmail_default"
              style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">If
              this matters, we can and must do much more.</div>
            <br>
          </div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at
              9:29 AM sivasubramanian muthusamy <<a
                href="mailto:6.internet@gmail.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">6.internet@gmail.com</a>>
              wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                  <br>
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                <br>
                <div class="gmail_quote">
                  <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 30, 2020
                    at 4:46 AM Dave Burstein via Chapter-delegates <<a
                      href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>>
                    wrote:<br>
                  </div>
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                      <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                        ms",sans-serif">Olaf</div>
                      <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                        ms",sans-serif"><br>
                      </div>
                      <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                        ms",sans-serif">We agree on the main issues
                        here, but we need to do a much more effective
                        job to win here. </div>
                      <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                        ms",sans-serif"><br>
                      </div>
                      <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                        ms",sans-serif">tl/dr unless the issues are
                        important to you.</div>
                      <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                        ms",sans-serif"><br>
                      </div>
                      <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                        ms",sans-serif"> I learned how to win
                        policy issues through 20 years watching silver
                        tongues like AT&T's legendary lobbyist Jim
                        Cicconi. They approach the battle by researching
                        carefully "what arguments will persuade the
                        people we need to reach and they will believe."
                        On telco control, which is the issue here, we
                        have great pocketbook issues you've noted in
                        your paper. Complexity and control drive up
                        costs enormously. That's a great reason to stick
                        with IP - it does a brilliant job adapting. Bob
                        and Vint work is extraordinary, not just
                        historic.</div>
                      <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                        ms",sans-serif"><br>
                      </div>
                      <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                        ms",sans-serif">   Something like this
                        needs support from far more people than might be
                        persuaded by <u>anything</u> we might say about
                        governance. <span
                          style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Very
                          few people care about ITU vs ICANN or IP vs
                          Non-IP. "Internet governance" issues are so
                          obscure even tech reporters rarely get them
                          right. No politicians understand this stuff
                          and 9 out of 10 won't accept some geeks
                          educating them. As our board member Pepper
                          (bcc'd) often says, "DC doesn't understand
                          anything that won't fit on a bumper
                          sticker."  </span></div>
                      <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                        ms",sans-serif"><span
                          style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
                        </span></div>
                      <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                        ms",sans-serif"><span
                          style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> 
                            We need to take a simple, clear position
                          that non-experts will respond to.</span></div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>If non-experts are the focus of this exercise, 
                    then please show it all in pictures and moving
                    images.  What is European Non-IP ? What is Chinese
                    New IP? And for context, what is precisely the US
                    battle with China?  How does Europe differ from the
                    US? To the extent that I understand, Europeans and
                    Americans wear the same clothes and speak the same
                    English. </div>
                  <div> </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
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                      <div>
                        <ul>
                          <li><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">We
                              need to stop referring to "New IP," the
                              Chinese proposal. Instead, We should talk
                              about "European Non-IP and Chinese New
                              IP." Otherwise, our positions can easily
                              be confused with the U.S. battle with
                              China and we will immediately lose much of
                              the audience we need to reach to be
                              effective. Someone we both respect in a
                              private note recently said t</font>he
                            U.S.  can't lead effectively here because it
                            will be dismissed as "more anti-China
                            rhetoric" He's right. We need to make clear
                            this is more than a U.S. China issue. That's
                            why I'm putting the Europeans first. <br>
                            <font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><br>
                              Even better, we need to find a way to
                              "frame the issue" that will advance our
                              goals by getting wider support. To win
                              this, we need to define the debate.  Very
                              few people care about ITU vs ICANN or IP
                              vs Non-IP. "Internet governance" issues
                              are so obscure even tech reporters rarely
                              get them right. <br>
                              No politicians understand this stuff and 9
                              out of 10 won't accept some geeks
                              educating them. As our board member Pepper
                              (bcc'd) often says, "DC doesn't understand
                              anything that won't fit on a bumper
                              sticker."</font></li>
                        </ul>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div>That is right.  "frame the issue", yes, but frame
                    the issue in colorful pictures, for at-a-glance
                    understanding. </div>
                  <div> </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
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                      <div>
                        <ul>
                          <li><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Currently,
                              the telcos and suppliers are doing a good
                              job convincing some very intelligent
                              people QoS is crucial for things like
                              telemedicine and autonomous cars. (The
                              best telecom economist in DC, for
                              example.) It also appears obvious to a
                              non-expert that better network control
                              would bring down costs. I think those are
                              dead wrong, but people are echoing the
                              arguments. How do we answer them?</font></li>
                        </ul>
                      </div>
                      <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                        ms",sans-serif"><br>
                      </div>
                      <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                        ms",sans-serif">For example, I'm writing
                        this as the "<b>Telcos want to take over the
                          Internet and charge more.</b>" </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>+1 (that would be an excellent way of reaching
                    the common man and the non-technical policy
                    makers.)  Lynn St-Amour usually explained it by
                    contrasting the way the Internet works with
                    Cable-Telecom pricing model. <br>
                  </div>
                  <div> </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
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                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                        ms",sans-serif">Also, the complexity will
                        make the system too expensive  That's not quite
                        good enough. I care about these issues as they
                        affect the cost of access, particularly for the
                        less affluent. </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Pricing 'Plan's ?   'bundles' ?  Monthly minimum
                    ?  Connectivity or 'Air' time charges ?  Value Added
                    Service Charges ?  Premium Services? </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
                    0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                    rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                        ms",sans-serif"><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <ul>
                            <li><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">We
                                need multiple participants at ITU and
                                ETSI. At the first meeting of FG2030 in
                                New York, there were something like 20
                                from China and maybe half a dozen from
                                the U.S. and a similar number from
                                Europe. After the New York meeting, the
                                ratio probably got worse. Hamadoun at
                                the 2014 Plenipot publicly urged Kathy
                                to send more people.</font> </li>
                          </ul>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
                    0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                    rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <ul>
                            <li><br>
                              <font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Incidentally,
                                at that meeting I was the only person to
                                raise anything beyond technical issues
                                like how to deliver holograms. Brazil
                                and India then backed my proposal, that
                                one of the "use cases" for 6G in FG2030
                                should be delivering systems inexpensive
                                enough for everyone. </font><br>
                              <font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">ITU
                                needs civil society and actively </font>encouraged
                              us. ETSI was very positive about ISOC in a
                              private conversation.<br>
                            </li>
                          </ul>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div> </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
                    0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                    rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <ul>
                            <li>We lose if this is perceived as U.S. and
                              allies, especially if Europe is split.
                              Remember, at least 65% of the Internet (by
                              almost everyone's definition except AS) is
                              not in the US and allies. The BRICS by
                              most measures now have more connections
                              than the U.S. and Western Europe combined.
                              Our work on this should visibly come from
                              a group with Africans and Asians
                              prominent. Our board members Olga Cavalli
                              (Argentina)  and Walid Al-Saqaf (Yemen)
                              have the right experience. India now has
                              400 million 4G connections, more than the
                              U.S. has people. They would be a crucial
                              swing. I can think of an extremely
                              eloquent Indian advocate for Free Software
                              but I think the recommendations should
                              come from our Indian chapters. <br>
                            </li>
                          </ul>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>India can be a great ally, if some one can speak
                    to India in good, clean English that the phone
                    companies are trying to impress Governments
                    everywhere with rosy jargon. </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
                    0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                    rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <ul>
                            <li><br>
                            </li>
                          </ul>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                        ms",sans-serif">
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <br>
                    <div class="gmail_quote">
                      <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 29,
                        2020 at 11:59 AM Olaf Kolkman via
                        Chapter-delegates <<a
                          href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>>
                        wrote:<br>
                      </div>
                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
                        0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                        rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                        <div>
                          <div style="font-family:sans-serif">
                            <div style="white-space:normal">
                              <p dir="auto">Colleagues</p>
                              <p dir="auto">There were some requests for
                                a public and archived space for
                                discussion of this paper. We set up a
                                list that doesn’t require ISOC
                                membership to discuss this paper (and
                                potential future discussion papers).</p>
                              <p dir="auto">Hence a friendly amendment
                                to the text below:</p>
                              <p dir="auto">We welcome any feedback on
                                “An analysis of the “New IP” proposal to
                                the ITU-T”. Contact the authors directly
                                using <a
                                  href="mailto:newIP-discussion-paper@isoc.org"
                                  style="color:rgb(57,131,196)"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">newIP-discussion-paper@isoc.org</a>
                                or post to the <a
                                  href="mailto:discussion-papers@elists.isoc.org"
                                  style="color:rgb(57,131,196)"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">discussion-papers@elists.isoc.org</a>
                                mailing list, which is public and
                                archived.</p>
                              <p dir="auto">—Olaf</p>
                              <p dir="auto">On 28 Apr 2020, at 10:22,
                                Olaf Kolkman wrote:</p>
                              <blockquote style="border-left:2px solid
                                rgb(119,119,119);color:rgb(119,119,119);margin:0px
                                0px 5px;padding-left:5px">
                                <p dir="auto">Dear Colleagues,</p>
                                <p dir="auto">With the usual cross-post
                                  apologies[*].</p>
                                <p dir="auto">In the run up to the ITU
                                  World Telecommunication
                                  Standardization Assembly (WTSA-20)
                                  later this year there has been some
                                  discussion about a proposal called the
                                  “New IP”. It is positioned as a
                                  top-down architecture to solve a
                                  number of use cases that are currently
                                  been developed in the ITU-T’s Future
                                  Network 2030 Focus Group.</p>
                                <p dir="auto">The Internet Society is
                                  carefully following the developments
                                  in the run-up to WTSA-20. We are
                                  trying to understand if and how the
                                  New IP works with the Internet as we
                                  know it, if it actually solves
                                  problems that cannot be solved in the
                                  Internet, and, if the ITU-T is
                                  developing standards, where other
                                  standards development organizations
                                  (SDOs) have change control.</p>
                                <p dir="auto">In order to get a sense of
                                  the environment we commissioned a
                                  discussion paper, <a
href="https://www.internetsociety.org/resources/doc/2020/discussion-paper-an-analysis-of-the-new-ip-proposal-to-the-itu-t/"
                                    style="color:rgb(119,119,119)"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">“An analysis
                                    of the ‘New IP’</a> proposal to the
                                  ITU-T.” The paper helps inform us and
                                  the broader community whilst the
                                  public debate around these proposals
                                  shapes up. It also aims to inform and
                                  shape the discussion from the
                                  Internet’s Society’s perspective.
                                  Eventually the debate around it will
                                  inform our position and the potential
                                  further evolution of the discussion
                                  paper itself. Note that the paper
                                  documents the Internet Society’s
                                  emerging opinion, but does not
                                  represent a final Internet Society
                                  position. Instead, we intend it as a
                                  means to gather information and
                                  insight from our community on the
                                  topic.</p>
                                <p dir="auto">We welcome any feedback on
                                  <a
href="https://www.internetsociety.org/resources/doc/2020/discussion-paper-an-analysis-of-the-new-ip-proposal-to-the-itu-t/"
                                    style="color:rgb(119,119,119)"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">“An analysis
                                    of the ‘New IP’</a> via the email
                                  address <a
                                    href="mailto:NewIP-Discussion-Paper@isoc.org"
                                    style="color:rgb(119,119,119)"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">NewIP-Discussion-Paper@isoc.org</a></p>
                                <p dir="auto">—Olaf Kolkman</p>
                                <p dir="auto">[*] This mail has been
                                  sent to various relevant mailing lists
                                  and featured as a blog on the Internet
                                  Society website.</p>
                                <hr style="background:linear-gradient(to
right,rgb(204,204,204),rgb(51,51,51),rgb(204,204,204))
                                  rgb(51,51,51);border:0px;height:1px"
                                  height="1">
                                <p dir="auto">Olaf M. Kolkman Tweets as:
                                  @kolkman<br>
                                  Principal - Internet Technology,
                                  Policy, and Advocacy<br>
                                  Internet Society <a
                                    href="https://www.internetsociety.org"
                                    style="color:rgb(119,119,119)"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.internetsociety.org</a></p>
                                <hr style="background:linear-gradient(to
right,rgb(204,204,204),rgb(51,51,51),rgb(204,204,204))
                                  rgb(51,51,51);border:0px;height:1px"
                                  height="1"> </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <hr>
                            <table
                              style="border-collapse:collapse;width:80%"
                              border="0">
                              <tbody>
                                <tr>
                                  <td style="width:50%">Olaf M. Kolkman</td>
                                  <td style="width:50%"><br>
                                  </td>
                                </tr>
                                <tr>
                                  <td style="width:50%">Principal -
                                    Internet Technology, Policy, and
                                    Advocacy</td>
                                  <td style="width:50%"><br>
                                  </td>
                                </tr>
                                <tr>
                                  <td style="width:50%"><a
                                      href="https://www.internetsociety.org/"
                                      target="_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true">Internet
                                      Society</a></td>
                                  <td style="width:50%" align="right">Tweets
                                    as: <a
                                      href="https://twitter.com/@kolkman"
                                      target="_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true">@kolkman</a></td>
                                </tr>
                              </tbody>
                            </table>
                            <hr> </div>
                        </div>
                        _______________________________________________<br>
                        As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are
                        automatically subscribed<br>
                        to this list, which is regularly synchronized
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                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <br clear="all">
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    -- <br>
                    <div dir="ltr">
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                                        <div dir="ltr">
                                          <div dir="ltr">
                                            <div dir="ltr">
                                              <div dir="ltr">Editor, <a
href="http://Fastnet.news" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://Fastnet.news</a>
                                                <a
                                                  href="http://wirelessone.news"
                                                  target="_blank"
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                                              <div>Reply "sub" for a
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                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    _______________________________________________<br>
                    As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are
                    automatically subscribed<br>
                    to this list, which is regularly synchronized with
                    the Internet Society Chapter Portal (AMS):<br>
                    <a
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                      rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
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                    View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: <a
                      href="https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/"
                      rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/</a><br>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
          <br clear="all">
          <div><br>
          </div>
          -- <br>
          <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
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                                  <div dir="ltr">
                                    <div dir="ltr">Editor, <a
                                        href="http://Fastnet.news"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">https://Fastnet.news</a>
                                      <a href="http://wirelessone.news"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">https://wirelessone.news</a> </div>
                                    <div>Reply "sub" for a free
                                      subscription to Fast Net News and
                                      Wireless One</div>
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                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
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          </div>
        </div>
        <br>
        -- <br>
        This message has been scanned for viruses and <br>
        dangerous content by <a href="http://www.mailscanner.info/"
          moz-do-not-send="true"><b>MailScanner</b></a>, and is <br>
        believed to be clean. <br>
        <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
        <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society Chapter Portal (AMS):
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login" moz-do-not-send="true">https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login</a>
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <p><br>
      </p>
      <pre class="moz-signature" cols="86">-- 
Paul Brooks
Chair, Internet Australia
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paul.brooks@internet.org.au" moz-do-not-send="true">paul.brooks@internet.org.au</a>
mobile +61414366605
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.internet.org.au" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.internet.org.au</a></pre>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society Chapter Portal (AMS):
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login">https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login</a>
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/">https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Christian de Larrinaga
----------------------</pre>
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