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    <p>Dave, <br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Thank you for this call in the wilderness. Olaf may well need
      reinforcements. ISOC could now gather IETF and W3C and attract the
      many others who are developing decentralised protocols and
      services to make a very big noise in the policy sphere to correct
      these attempts to game the global economy and societies.</p>
    <p>As far as I know these are still "proposals". That is a Question?
      They  will as you imply add considerable costs and the performance
      assumptions do look very dubious. But we as chapters need clear
      presentations that are geared to put considerable public political
      pressure on policy mandarins not to go down the
      oligopolist/monopolistic man in the middle market capture routes
      of the bad old days.<br>
    </p>
    <p>As Olaf has commented IETF is shifting with new opportunities in
      the transport layer anyway (with QUIC for instance). Henning is
      someone to bring in too.<br>
    </p>
    <p>C<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/07/2020 00:10, Dave Burstein via
      Chapter-delegates wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAAUuzMTp+50QHQR9-be6fojrJmraXMa-pfTuCqZ_=GXaixZkGg@mail.gmail.com">
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          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
            ms,sans-serif">An update here. </div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
            ms,sans-serif"><br>
          </div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
            ms,sans-serif">In the 1980's and 1990's, the phone companies
            failed to dominate the Internet. Ask Vint or Dave Farber
            about the "protocol wars." Many of us talked about the
            battle between the Bellheads and the Netheads. </div>
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            ms,sans-serif"><br>
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          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
            ms,sans-serif">It's back, I believe, although it's the
            European and Asian telcos leading the way, with the
            Americans quietly cheering them on. I believe that's the
            purpose of "deterministic networking," which just was
            incorporated by the key ITU Focus Group 2030, defining 6G.*
            2030, where I am a member, has included the proposals in the
            final "architecture document" that will become the IMT
            definition of 6G and define the future of the Internet.
            Europe's Non-IP and ITU deterministic networking are moving
            forward. Contrary to <i>FT</i> and the handful of other
            press reports, this isn't about China taking over the
            Internet. </div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
            ms,sans-serif"><br>
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          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
            ms,sans-serif">It's about the telcos, European and Chinese
            leading, taking over to enforce Quality of Service, also
            called network slicing. Cisco, Huawei, and other vendors
            want to sell the more expensive gear.</div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
            ms,sans-serif"><br>
          </div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
            ms,sans-serif">It's all about money. The telcos think they
            will make hundreds of billions because Internet traffic <u>needs</u> QoS.
            I, and experts like Henning Schulzrinne of Columbia, think
            this highly unlikely. Our voices are drowned out.</div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
            ms,sans-serif"><br>
          </div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
            ms,sans-serif">Slicing is already included in 3GPP 5G
            standards. Deutsche Telekom believes they will be able to
            guarantee high capacity, low latency service. (5G as
            deployed is ~30 ms latency; the 1-10 ms latency is a fantasy
            outside the lab. Don't believe the hype.)</div>
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            ms,sans-serif"><br>
          </div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
            ms,sans-serif">But what happens if air traffic control in
            Hamburg (on DT's network) wants to coordinate with ATC in
            Lyon, on Orange/FT. There's no way today to guarantee
            performance across networks, although the IEFT has long had
            solutions. The same problem occurs with multi-player Pokemon
            Go when one player is on DT and the second on Vodafone.</div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
            ms,sans-serif"><br>
          </div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
            ms,sans-serif">To solve that problem, the telcos want to
            (gradually) dump TCP-IP in favor of a tightly controlled
            "deterministic network." TCP-IP has proven its ability to
            adapt and scale. I think the efficiency claims will not be
            realized and the cost much higher. In theoretical
            discussions in standards, the new system works perfectly. I
            live in the real world. </div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
            ms,sans-serif"><br>
          </div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
            ms,sans-serif"> TCP-IP will gradually be replaced by an
            alternative that is designed for QoS/network slicing because
            the carriers believe they will be paid for SLAs and
            guaranteed performance. This is desired by security agencies
            and the carriers think they can sell it to others. They
            smell $billions and intend to push it through. Like
            everything else in telecom, the Chinese will be the first to
            a large build, but Telefonica, DT and others intend to move
            forward.</div>
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            ms,sans-serif"><br>
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          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"trebuchet
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            It will take at least 3 years for this to become practical
            to deploy and more likely 5-7. </div>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"trebuchet
            ms",sans-serif">But if we think this is not a desirable
            long term future for the net, we have to be very public and
            make the issues clear. Olaf's paper is sensible but oblique,
            and our beliefs are invisible in places like Focus Group
            2030 and the other places - especially 3GPP & ETSI -
            where decisions are being made. (I sometimes speak to it,
            but have to earn a living and haven't had much time.)</div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"trebuchet
            ms",sans-serif"><br>
          </div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"trebuchet
            ms",sans-serif">Accurate information is not enough to
            win a political battle with literally $trillions of
            companies and their governments are on the other side.</div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"trebuchet
            ms",sans-serif"><br>
          </div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"trebuchet
            ms",sans-serif">If this matters, we can and must do
            much more.</div>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 9:29
            AM sivasubramanian muthusamy <<a
              href="mailto:6.internet@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">6.internet@gmail.com</a>>
            wrote:<br>
          </div>
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                <br>
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              <br>
              <div class="gmail_quote">
                <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 30, 2020
                  at 4:46 AM Dave Burstein via Chapter-delegates <<a
                    href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org"
                    target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>>
                  wrote:<br>
                </div>
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                    <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                      ms",sans-serif">Olaf</div>
                    <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                      ms",sans-serif"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                      ms",sans-serif">We agree on the main issues
                      here, but we need to do a much more effective job
                      to win here. </div>
                    <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                      ms",sans-serif"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                      ms",sans-serif">tl/dr unless the issues are
                      important to you.</div>
                    <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                      ms",sans-serif"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                      ms",sans-serif"> I learned how to win policy
                      issues through 20 years watching silver tongues
                      like AT&T's legendary lobbyist Jim Cicconi.
                      They approach the battle by researching carefully
                      "what arguments will persuade the people we need
                      to reach and they will believe." On telco control,
                      which is the issue here, we have great pocketbook
                      issues you've noted in your paper. Complexity and
                      control drive up costs enormously. That's a great
                      reason to stick with IP - it does a brilliant job
                      adapting. Bob and Vint work is extraordinary, not
                      just historic.</div>
                    <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                      ms",sans-serif"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                      ms",sans-serif">   Something like this needs
                      support from far more people than might be
                      persuaded by <u>anything</u> we might say about
                      governance. <span
                        style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Very
                        few people care about ITU vs ICANN or IP vs
                        Non-IP. "Internet governance" issues are so
                        obscure even tech reporters rarely get them
                        right. No politicians understand this stuff and
                        9 out of 10 won't accept some geeks educating
                        them. As our board member Pepper (bcc'd) often
                        says, "DC doesn't understand anything that won't
                        fit on a bumper sticker."  </span></div>
                    <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                      ms",sans-serif"><span
                        style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
                      </span></div>
                    <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                      ms",sans-serif"><span
                        style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> 
                          We need to take a simple, clear position that
                        non-experts will respond to.</span></div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>If non-experts are the focus of this exercise, 
                  then please show it all in pictures and moving
                  images.  What is European Non-IP ? What is Chinese New
                  IP? And for context, what is precisely the US battle
                  with China?  How does Europe differ from the US? To
                  the extent that I understand, Europeans and Americans
                  wear the same clothes and speak the same English. </div>
                <div> </div>
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                      <ul>
                        <li><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">We
                            need to stop referring to "New IP," the
                            Chinese proposal. Instead, We should talk
                            about "European Non-IP and Chinese New IP."
                            Otherwise, our positions can easily be
                            confused with the U.S. battle with China and
                            we will immediately lose much of the
                            audience we need to reach to be effective.
                            Someone we both respect in a private note
                            recently said t</font>he U.S.  can't lead
                          effectively here because it will be dismissed
                          as "more anti-China rhetoric" He's right. We
                          need to make clear this is more than a U.S.
                          China issue. That's why I'm putting the
                          Europeans first. <br>
                          <font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><br>
                            Even better, we need to find a way to "frame
                            the issue" that will advance our goals by
                            getting wider support. To win this, we need
                            to define the debate.  Very few people care
                            about ITU vs ICANN or IP vs Non-IP.
                            "Internet governance" issues are so obscure
                            even tech reporters rarely get them right. <br>
                            No politicians understand this stuff and 9
                            out of 10 won't accept some geeks educating
                            them. As our board member Pepper (bcc'd)
                            often says, "DC doesn't understand anything
                            that won't fit on a bumper sticker."</font></li>
                      </ul>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div>That is right.  "frame the issue", yes, but frame
                  the issue in colorful pictures, for at-a-glance
                  understanding. </div>
                <div> </div>
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                      <ul>
                        <li><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Currently,
                            the telcos and suppliers are doing a good
                            job convincing some very intelligent people
                            QoS is crucial for things like telemedicine
                            and autonomous cars. (The best telecom
                            economist in DC, for example.) It also
                            appears obvious to a non-expert that better
                            network control would bring down costs. I
                            think those are dead wrong, but people are
                            echoing the arguments. How do we answer
                            them?</font></li>
                      </ul>
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                      ms",sans-serif"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                      ms",sans-serif">For example, I'm writing this
                      as the "<b>Telcos want to take over the Internet
                        and charge more.</b>" </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>+1 (that would be an excellent way of reaching the
                  common man and the non-technical policy makers.)  Lynn
                  St-Amour usually explained it by contrasting the way
                  the Internet works with Cable-Telecom pricing model. <br>
                </div>
                <div> </div>
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                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div style="font-family:"trebuchet
                      ms",sans-serif">Also, the complexity will
                      make the system too expensive  That's not quite
                      good enough. I care about these issues as they
                      affect the cost of access, particularly for the
                      less affluent. </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Pricing 'Plan's ?   'bundles' ?  Monthly minimum ? 
                  Connectivity or 'Air' time charges ?  Value Added
                  Service Charges ?  Premium Services? </div>
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                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <ul>
                          <li><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">We
                              need multiple participants at ITU and
                              ETSI. At the first meeting of FG2030 in
                              New York, there were something like 20
                              from China and maybe half a dozen from the
                              U.S. and a similar number from Europe.
                              After the New York meeting, the ratio
                              probably got worse. Hamadoun at the 2014
                              Plenipot publicly urged Kathy to send more
                              people.</font> </li>
                        </ul>
                      </div>
                    </div>
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                </blockquote>
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                      <div>
                        <ul>
                          <li><br>
                            <font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Incidentally,
                              at that meeting I was the only person to
                              raise anything beyond technical issues
                              like how to deliver holograms. Brazil and
                              India then backed my proposal, that one of
                              the "use cases" for 6G in FG2030 should be
                              delivering systems inexpensive enough for
                              everyone. </font><br>
                            <font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">ITU
                              needs civil society and actively </font>encouraged
                            us. ETSI was very positive about ISOC in a
                            private conversation.<br>
                          </li>
                        </ul>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div> </div>
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                        <ul>
                          <li>We lose if this is perceived as U.S. and
                            allies, especially if Europe is split.
                            Remember, at least 65% of the Internet (by
                            almost everyone's definition except AS) is
                            not in the US and allies. The BRICS by most
                            measures now have more connections than the
                            U.S. and Western Europe combined. Our work
                            on this should visibly come from a group
                            with Africans and Asians prominent. Our
                            board members Olga Cavalli (Argentina)  and
                            Walid Al-Saqaf (Yemen) have the right
                            experience. India now has 400 million 4G
                            connections, more than the U.S. has people.
                            They would be a crucial swing. I can think
                            of an extremely eloquent Indian advocate for
                            Free Software but I think the
                            recommendations should come from our Indian
                            chapters. <br>
                          </li>
                        </ul>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>India can be a great ally, if some one can speak to
                  India in good, clean English that the phone companies
                  are trying to impress Governments everywhere with rosy
                  jargon. </div>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
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                  <br>
                  <div class="gmail_quote">
                    <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 29,
                      2020 at 11:59 AM Olaf Kolkman via
                      Chapter-delegates <<a
                        href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>>
                      wrote:<br>
                    </div>
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                      rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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                          <div style="white-space:normal">
                            <p dir="auto">Colleagues</p>
                            <p dir="auto">There were some requests for a
                              public and archived space for discussion
                              of this paper. We set up a list that
                              doesn’t require ISOC membership to discuss
                              this paper (and potential future
                              discussion papers).</p>
                            <p dir="auto">Hence a friendly amendment to
                              the text below:</p>
                            <p dir="auto">We welcome any feedback on “An
                              analysis of the “New IP” proposal to the
                              ITU-T”. Contact the authors directly using
                              <a
                                href="mailto:newIP-discussion-paper@isoc.org"
                                style="color:rgb(57,131,196)"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">newIP-discussion-paper@isoc.org</a>
                              or post to the <a
                                href="mailto:discussion-papers@elists.isoc.org"
                                style="color:rgb(57,131,196)"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">discussion-papers@elists.isoc.org</a>
                              mailing list, which is public and
                              archived.</p>
                            <p dir="auto">—Olaf</p>
                            <p dir="auto">On 28 Apr 2020, at 10:22, Olaf
                              Kolkman wrote:</p>
                            <blockquote style="border-left:2px solid
                              rgb(119,119,119);color:rgb(119,119,119);margin:0px
                              0px 5px;padding-left:5px">
                              <p dir="auto">Dear Colleagues,</p>
                              <p dir="auto">With the usual cross-post
                                apologies[*].</p>
                              <p dir="auto">In the run up to the ITU
                                World Telecommunication Standardization
                                Assembly (WTSA-20) later this year there
                                has been some discussion about a
                                proposal called the “New IP”. It is
                                positioned as a top-down architecture to
                                solve a number of use cases that are
                                currently been developed in the ITU-T’s
                                Future Network 2030 Focus Group.</p>
                              <p dir="auto">The Internet Society is
                                carefully following the developments in
                                the run-up to WTSA-20. We are trying to
                                understand if and how the New IP works
                                with the Internet as we know it, if it
                                actually solves problems that cannot be
                                solved in the Internet, and, if the
                                ITU-T is developing standards, where
                                other standards development
                                organizations (SDOs) have change
                                control.</p>
                              <p dir="auto">In order to get a sense of
                                the environment we commissioned a
                                discussion paper, <a
href="https://www.internetsociety.org/resources/doc/2020/discussion-paper-an-analysis-of-the-new-ip-proposal-to-the-itu-t/"
                                  style="color:rgb(119,119,119)"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">“An
                                  analysis of the ‘New IP’</a> proposal
                                to the ITU-T.” The paper helps inform us
                                and the broader community whilst the
                                public debate around these proposals
                                shapes up. It also aims to inform and
                                shape the discussion from the Internet’s
                                Society’s perspective. Eventually the
                                debate around it will inform our
                                position and the potential further
                                evolution of the discussion paper
                                itself. Note that the paper documents
                                the Internet Society’s emerging opinion,
                                but does not represent a final Internet
                                Society position. Instead, we intend it
                                as a means to gather information and
                                insight from our community on the topic.</p>
                              <p dir="auto">We welcome any feedback on <a
href="https://www.internetsociety.org/resources/doc/2020/discussion-paper-an-analysis-of-the-new-ip-proposal-to-the-itu-t/"
                                  style="color:rgb(119,119,119)"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">“An
                                  analysis of the ‘New IP’</a> via the
                                email address <a
                                  href="mailto:NewIP-Discussion-Paper@isoc.org"
                                  style="color:rgb(119,119,119)"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">NewIP-Discussion-Paper@isoc.org</a></p>
                              <p dir="auto">—Olaf Kolkman</p>
                              <p dir="auto">[*] This mail has been sent
                                to various relevant mailing lists and
                                featured as a blog on the Internet
                                Society website.</p>
                              <hr style="background:linear-gradient(to
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                                height="1">
                              <p dir="auto">Olaf M. Kolkman Tweets as:
                                @kolkman<br>
                                Principal - Internet Technology, Policy,
                                and Advocacy<br>
                                Internet Society <a
                                  href="https://www.internetsociety.org"
                                  style="color:rgb(119,119,119)"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.internetsociety.org</a></p>
                              <hr style="background:linear-gradient(to
                                right,rgb(204,204,204),rgb(51,51,51),rgb(204,204,204))
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                            </blockquote>
                          </div>
                          <hr>
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                            style="border-collapse:collapse;width:80%"
                            border="0">
                            <tbody>
                              <tr>
                                <td style="width:50%">Olaf M. Kolkman</td>
                                <td style="width:50%"><br>
                                </td>
                              </tr>
                              <tr>
                                <td style="width:50%">Principal -
                                  Internet Technology, Policy, and
                                  Advocacy</td>
                                <td style="width:50%"><br>
                                </td>
                              </tr>
                              <tr>
                                <td style="width:50%"><a
                                    href="https://www.internetsociety.org/"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">Internet
                                    Society</a></td>
                                <td style="width:50%" align="right">Tweets
                                  as: <a
                                    href="https://twitter.com/@kolkman"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">@kolkman</a></td>
                              </tr>
                            </tbody>
                          </table>
                          <hr>
                        </div>
                      </div>
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                  -- <br>
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                  As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are
                  automatically subscribed<br>
                  to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the
                  Internet Society Chapter Portal (AMS):<br>
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      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society Chapter Portal (AMS):
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View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/">https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Christian de Larrinaga
----------------------</pre>
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