<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">Hi Olivier.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">About your first issue I would like to propose a question. The GDPR applies to the EC. To my knowledge, this rule (law, regulation) is not enforced in the US and many other countries. Therefore, why apply a country specific rule to all chapters? </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">On the second issue, I completely agree. You cannot participate as a member in the Internet Society without receiving emails from the chapter and ISOC. This option, if made available, should be accompanied by a statement indicating something like "<i>if you choose not to receive emails your membership will be cancelled</i>".</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">Just my 2 cents,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>José R. de la Cruz</div><div></div><a href="mailto:jrdelacruz@acm.org" target="_blank">jrdelacruz@acm.org</a><br></div></div><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">Vice President, Puerto Rico Chapter</div><br><br></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 10:51 AM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <<a href="mailto:ocl@gih.com">ocl@gih.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Dear Eduardo,<br>
<br>
my email which triggered this whole discussion pointed out two
things: <br>
1. the inability to download a list of members in XLS/CSV format
which is a technical thing that might be triggered by policy - could
it be that Chapters are not allowed to download a list of their
members for fear of breaking GDPR rules?<br>
2. the ability for some people to be "members" whilst selecting not
to receive any email - which is not a technical problem, but a
policy problem of chapters that raises two questions:<br>
a. how in the world did people manage to end up selecting they do
not want to receive email, when the previous system did not have
such an option<br>
b. is a "member" who does not receive emails from the Internet
Society really a "member" or should they be deleted too?<br>
<br>
Neither of these are resolved and I'd really like to discuss (2) as
this is a chapter policy issue.<br>
Kindest regards,<br>
<br>
Olivier<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail-m_-7676183310302239574moz-cite-prefix">On 14/02/2019 14:15, Eduardo Diaz
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large">For
what I have been reading, it looks that the email issue was
solved.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large">I
will send a message today and see how it goes.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large">Thanks.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large">-ed</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 5:34
AM Christine Saegesser <<a href="mailto:saegesser@isoc.org" target="_blank">saegesser@isoc.org</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi
Eduardo, <br>
<br>
Please let me jump in here. Sending an e-mail to the members
of your Chapter that have agreed to receive communications
should not be an issue. <br>
<br>
There’s a step by step guide on doing this on pages 23-25 of
the Chapter Officer AMS User Guide (which is available via the
AMS Dashboard if you are logged in as an officer - I’m also
adding a link to the document here if this is easier to sort
this out quickly: <a href="https://isoc.box.com/s/2n0cf5bf647yrrts8va6j4qcvb9pq9w5" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://isoc.box.com/s/2n0cf5bf647yrrts8va6j4qcvb9pq9w5</a>).
I hope this is helpful. <br>
<br>
Please do let me know if you’d like to walk through the steps
on a quick Zoom call. <br>
<br>
Best, <br>
<br>
Christine<br>
<br>
<br>
> On 13. Feb 2019, at 21:46, Eduardo Diaz <<a href="mailto:eduardodiazrivera@gmail.com" target="_blank">eduardodiazrivera@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> This is all an indicator that the company behind this
system did not have a good test plan to make sure basic
functionality worked and that the data transferred was done
correctly. In our case we have a big event coming up this
Friday, 15 Feb 2019 and there is just no way we can remind our
membership about it. Bad, Bad..<br>
> <br>
> Eduardo Díaz<br>
> Board Member<br>
> ISOC Puerto Rico<br>
> <br>
> On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 3:38 PM Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:greg@isoc-ny.org" target="_blank">greg@isoc-ny.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> All,<br>
> <br>
> The New York Chapter is experiencing the same
difficulties. However, I do believe we were warned that, if
members did not opt in during the opt in process, they would
be deleted from the database and their membership in the
Internet Society and any chapters terminated. <br>
> <br>
> It’s unclear to me whether only those members were
deleted. Regardless, we lost a massive amount of members. If
they were deadwood, that seems like a correct result, but it
seems like there were some live ones in among the deadwood.<br>
> <br>
> Whether it was legally necessary to go the opt in route
is a fun question, but also an absolutely moot point, since
it’s all been done (over many months with repeated warnings,
emails and exhortations).<br>
> <br>
> Another anomaly: There were also members listed in the
old database with expiration dates. I believe they stayed in
the database even after the expiration date, and it appears
that some of these expired members did opt in, so they
survived the transition to the new database. These members are
now flagged as inactive (or words to that effect). It’s
unclear to me how these should be (or should have been) dealt
with.<br>
> <br>
> Those who opted in but declined to receive email (was
that even an option?) are even more of a head scratcher. Email
is our only official line of communication with members — sure
they can visit our website, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.,
but that is not the same thing.<br>
> <br>
> While we’re at it, the listing of “Roles” for Chapter
leadership is very limited. Anyone who had a role in the old
database that doesn’t exist in the new database was converted
to “officer”. This happened to our representatives to ICANN At
-Large and NCSG/NCUC, as well as liaisons from ICANN and from
another organization — none of these people (with one
exception) are in fact “officers” of the Chapter or our
Corporation.<br>
> <br>
> Perhaps this was a “live beta”....<br>
> <br>
> Best regards,<br>
> <br>
> Greg<br>
> On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 2:20 PM Y.Kargapolov <<a href="mailto:yvk2010@gmail.com" target="_blank">yvk2010@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> +1 Ram<br>
> <br>
> This is the most reasonable move in the current
situation.<br>
> <br>
> --<br>
> Yuri<br>
> ISOC IoT SIG<br>
> <br>
> Вы писали 13 февраля 2019 г., 18:56:04:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ISOC should consider reinstating the old AMS so that
chapters can get back to functioning, download CSVs, etc.,
since the assumption that there would be fidelity in
cross-over is not reality.<br>
> <br>
> This approach allows ISOC tech staff the time to identify
root cause(s) and troubleshoot issues on the new system and
test it without impacting chapters worldwide in their core
operations.<br>
> <br>
> -Ram<br>
> <br>
> From: Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <<a href="mailto:ocl@gih.com" target="_blank">ocl@gih.com</a>> <br>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2019 12:09 PM<br>
> To: Chapter Delegates <<a href="mailto:Chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">Chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>><br>
> Subject: [Chapter-delegates] Problems with new membership
system<br>
> <br>
> Hello all,<br>
> <br>
> I'd be interested in your comments, as I have realised
(from the feedback received on today's Chapter Advisory
Council Steering Committee) that the UK Chapter is not the
only Chapter with Membership software problems. Throughout the
week, I have been grappling with various problems brought
forward by the new Internet Society membership system. <br>
> <br>
> Leaving small problems to the side, there are two main
problems that the Internet Society UK England Chapter is
facing:<br>
> <br>
> 1. The inability to download a list of all our members in
Excel format. When we started using the ISOC AMS system, we
transferred all of our member's details to the AMS. We even
registered with the Data Protection Registrar, in case the
details were going to be leaving the UK. Whilst the Internet
Society runs the AMS system, we believe that we are the data
controller. Now we cannot retrieve the data of our own members
and the question comes as to "who owns members"? I remember
this debate poisoned discussions in early 2000 when the
Internet Society was about to collapse for lack of funds and
at the end of the day, the matter was dug into the ground and
full access to the membership records given to the Chapters
about their own members. Now the new system makes things a lot
harder for the Chapter to view and download records of its own
members. This simply cannot be the case.<br>
> <br>
> 2. Emailing members using the system: here there are two
main problems: first, it is now impossible to email a subset
of our members, it's either all of them, or 1 of them, but
there is no ability to select a subset of members, for example
living in town X, and email them. Functionality loss - which I
had already pointed out during the demonstration calls a few
months ago, but it appears that someone has deliberately
decided to ignore this important feature. That's a technical
thing that should be fixed easily.<br>
> <br>
> The second problem, possibly more of a problem because I
do not think that it is technical, but is a "feature" that was
added, is that we now appear not to be able to email all of
our members. With the decision of ISOC to go through the
toughest regimes of GDPR acceptance by asking for explicit
acceptance of GDPR terms, we went from 3400 to 1490 members.
Whilst this is a pill that's difficult to swallow, I
understand the purpose and conservative direction that ISOC
took for this - the culture of "safety first" prevailing these
days. That said, we now have another challenge, in that out of
these 1490 members, we appear to only be able to email 1098 of
them - because it appears that 400 of our "members" have
"decided not to receive emails".<br>
> First, I think that the email opt out button is very
badly marked, as it cuts you off all communication and signs
you off all of the mailing lists that you might have
subscribed to. In my test, I have managed to sign myself off
email mailing lists without being able to find a way to put
myself back on them - for example the Internet Policy..... But
worse still, I have found that my own colleagues in the
leadership team have opted out of emails - perhaps
unwittingly.<br>
> <br>
> What good is a Chapter member that opts out of emails?<br>
> <br>
> How in the world will I get in touch with members that
have opted out of emails? Are these people completely cut-off
from the Internet Society? Are they receiving *any*
communication at all from the Internet Society, or is it only
the Chapter that is blocked from being able to email them? Do
they know they have opted out?<br>
> To me, these 400 people that the Chapter cannot email are
as good as dead wood - why not remove them from Internet
Society membership as well?<br>
> <br>
> I'd be interested in your comments if you are faced with
similar problems.<br>
> Kindest regards,<br>
> <br>
> Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond<br>
> (personal views)<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail-m_-7676183310302239574gmail_signature"><b><font face="verdana,
sans-serif">NOTICE:</font></b> <span>This email may contain
information which is confidential and/or subject to legal
privilege, and is intended for the use of the named addressee
only. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use,
disclose or copy any part of this email. If you have received
this email by mistake, please notify the sender and delete
this message immediately.</span></div>
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<fieldset class="gmail-m_-7676183310302239574mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="gmail-m_-7676183310302239574moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society Chapter Portal (AMS):
<a class="gmail-m_-7676183310302239574moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login" target="_blank">https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="gmail-m_-7676183310302239574moz-signature" cols="72">--
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD
<a class="gmail-m_-7676183310302239574moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.gih.com/ocl.html" target="_blank">http://www.gih.com/ocl.html</a>
</pre>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed<br>
to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society Chapter Portal (AMS):<br>
<a href="https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login</a><br>
</blockquote></div>