<div dir="auto">Greg,<div dir="auto">You took the words out of my mouth. Very correct. I must thank the honorable Dr. for his correction and information. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I recall similar issues arose in ICANN. A case with reference to .shoprite. When it comes to trademarks, tradename or intellectual property. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I hope we can all resolve this issue. It's closer than we think to a Brexit discussion (ZAxit?).</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, 11 Dec 2018, 10:00 pm Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:greg@isoc-ny.org">greg@isoc-ny.org</a> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>All,<br><br><div dir="auto">If there is more than one Internet Society chapter in South Africa (and there is), that adds another level to this issue. If ISOC-ZA is in fact the owner of the INTERNET SOCIETY trademark in South Africa, then it seems that ISOC-ZA could demand that the Guateng Chapter either take a license from ISOC-ZA or cease using the INTERNET SOCIETY name. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Similarly, ISOC-ZA could seek to block the establishment of any future Internet Society chapters in South Africa. ISOC-ZA could also seek to bar any use of INTERNET SOCIETY in South Africa as a trade mark or trade name, e.g., by ISOC Global or by any other ISOC chapter.</div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If ISOC-ZA is not the owner of the INTERNET SOCIETY trademark in South Africa, it would appear that these potential problems do not arise.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Just my thoughts. (Not legal advice. Actual legal advice would require a South African lawyer specializing in trademark law.)</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Best regards,</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Greg</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 2:58 PM Ram CFO <<a href="mailto:ram.cfo@icloud.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ram.cfo@icloud.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Dear Adebunmi,<div><br></div><div>Please let me clarify that this is not the case for Internet Society South Africa as a country as the Gauteng Chapter, also based in South Africa, is not having this problem.</div><div><br></div><div>Warm regards,<br><br><div id="m_-6999121656575977688m_-5171823825414683314m_-4745964826337685737AppleMailSignature" dir="ltr"><div><div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal"><div><div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal"><div class="m_-6999121656575977688m_-5171823825414683314m_-4745964826337685737yiv6981295516"><div class="m_-6999121656575977688m_-5171823825414683314m_-4745964826337685737yiv6981295516" style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal"><div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Dr K. Ram, Ph. D, MBA, CFO(SA)</span></b></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Published Author | Entrepreneur | CFO(SA)<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/kramphd/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Dr Ram Professional Profile</a></span></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue";font-size:12px"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="text-align:start"></div></div></div></div><div dir="auto"><div><div dir="ltr"><br>On 11 Dec 2018, at 21:23, Adebunmi AKINBO <<a href="mailto:akinbo.adebunmi@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">akinbo.adebunmi@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Officers et al...</div>Just an honest Opinion or my opinion.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The Internet Society my not have a sovereign right to that name in South Africa but choosing to e an affiliate implies that you have to follow a rule. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I recall when I started ISOC-NG States and was asked to drop the logo; we dropped the logo and the name ISOC and became NG-States. Rejuvenation as stated in the group led to what we have today. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">We must be sincere to note that ISOC is growing and certain things will change. We advise that you reach a compromise and move ahead to #shapetomorrow. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Regards.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Akinbo</div><div dir="auto">NG-States...</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, 11 Dec 2018, 5:02 pm Veni Markovski <<a href="mailto:veni@veni.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">veni@veni.com</a> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">This is an issue, which
should be taken off the list, IMHO, and dealt with in a mutually
beneficial way. <br>
There are other organizations, which were created with their names
"Internet Society - [name of country]" long before the recent
letter, and certainly they are legal under their national
legislation, and it would be challenging for <a href="http://ISOC.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ISOC.org</a> to claim
these organizations cannot use the name, just because they are
chapters. In fact, in some cases I can remember, the national
organizations were not chapters, but they still had the name. If
ISOC has (R) the brand around the world, that may be a different
case, but it hasn't, AFAIK.<br>
<br>
So, I read your two messages as a concern, not as a way to put an
end to decades of relationship. Right?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Veni<br>
ISOC Bulgaria<br>
</font><br>
<div class="m_-6999121656575977688m_-5171823825414683314m_-4745964826337685737m_-7836023052036180845moz-cite-prefix">On 12/11/18 10:26, Alan Levin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Raul,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kind thanks for your email. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would very much like to discuss this further, I have been
discussing it with our team for over 18 months and certainly
been providing all the feedback to you via Christine. She
confirmed that she has discussed this with you and the whole
team so I thought you had all made up your minds. This email
was only to share your decision with my colleagues. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We want to stay an affiliated Chapter. I have told you this
face to face last year in Cape Town. We also wish to retain
some sovereignty as is consistent with all our
communications. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I sent the email to the Chapter list only because Christine
has suggested that all the Chapters concur with you and I was
hopeful to obtain some support from other chapters.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sincerely</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Alan</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 5:12 PM Raul Echeberria
<<a href="mailto:echeberria@isoc.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">echeberria@isoc.org</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
Dear Alan:<br>
<br>
Your characterization of the relationship between Internet
Society chapters and Internet Society organization is very
far from the real situation. <br>
We have had an open discussion within the Chapters community
about this letter for more than 1 year and most of the
inputs, feedbacks and also the special requirements based on
local laws, have been considered. <br>
<br>
I can not make a legal opinion about the use of our brand in
South Africa since it is not my matter of expertise. And if
needed, I hope we have a civilized conversation about that
specific issue. <br>
<br>
You recently asked to discuss this issue with ISOC’s CEO,
Andrew Sullivan, and I passed this request to him just a few
minutes before you sent your email. The language you use in
your text doesn’t seem very compatible with an attitude of
dialogue. Let me know please later (on or off list, as you
prefer) if you are still interested in having further
discussions about this matter or you are just parting
ways, as your email suggests. <br>
<br>
Best Regards, <br>
<br>
Raúl <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> El 11 dic. 2018, a las 11:52, Alan Levin <<a href="mailto:alan@isoc.org.za" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">alan@isoc.org.za</a>> escribió:<br>
> <br>
> Dear friends and colleagues,<br>
> <br>
> It seems that your top-down model is taking over (I say
"yours" since I am told over 110 of you have signed this
agreement). ISOC-ZA have agreed not to relinquish the name
Internet Society to the benevolent dictator in the USA, i.e.
we believe we own this name in our Geography. So - as
discussed always - we have taken out the part that says "The
Internet Society hereby grants the Chapter a limited,
revocable, non-exclusive license to use the name “Internet
Society”. We also reserve the right to be called the
Internet Society of South Africa as we have in the past, and
not how ISOC may determine from time to time how we should
be named (as per the same part of the agreement we are being
"forced" to sign). <br>
> <br>
> i.e. we established ourselves independently as a
Chapter in our Geography and in 1998 that allowed us
sovereignty and ownership of the name Internet Society.
Since then we have established ourselves as a local civil
society organisation that has mostly focused on local policy
making activities relating to the Internet. <br>
> <br>
> Unfortunately now the "mother ship" has told us that we
must relinquish our name to them and accept that we use it
only under their license. Since we do not agree they wish to
fight us / exclude us / or as they state "put us into
"rehabilitation". <br>
> <br>
> I have been a member of this list for over 15 years, I
suppose they will boot me soon... We do have affiliation
with ISOC Libya and ISOC China who are not affiliated with
ISOC-global, so please do be in contact if you wish to make
a bilateral affiliation (if you think you are allowed :P). <br>
> <br>
> Cheers, Happy Holidays, Warm regards<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Alan Levin<br>
> Chairman ISOC-ZA<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>
> From: Christine Saegesser <<a href="mailto:saegesser@isoc.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">saegesser@isoc.org</a>><br>
> Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 11:54 AM<br>
> Subject: Re: Urgent: Signature of the updated ISOC
Chapter Charter Letter<br>
> To: Alan Levin <<a href="mailto:alan@isoc.org.za" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">alan@isoc.org.za</a>><br>
> <br>
> Dear Alan, <br>
> <br>
> I’d like to get back to you on this after further
consultation among the team and our legal team. <br>
> <br>
> Chapters are very important to the work of the Internet
Society to keep the Internet open, transparent and for the
benefit of all people throughout the world. Community
engagement around our main campaigns and other important
programmes is a key element of the Internet Society’s 2019
Action Plan and is very close to the heart of our leadership
team and especially our new President and CEO, Andrew
Sullivan. <br>
> <br>
> We now have 110 Chapters who signed the letter in its
current version and we’d like to invite you again to
consider signing the letter as it is. We will not be able to
make these compromises on the points related to the use of
the Internet Society trademark, logos and independence. <br>
> <br>
> As you know, the final version of the updated Chapter
Charter letter was shared for signature with all Internet
Society Chapters at the beginning of 2018, following the
extensive community consultation process undertaken last
year to develop and finalise this version of the letter. The
Chapter Charter letter defines the Internet Society’s
relationship with its Chapters and vice versa, it sets out
our respective responsibilities and limits liabilities. <br>
> <br>
> From what we know, the constitution of the South Africa
Chapter (from 2007) says the following with regards to the
name of the Chapter: "The name of the association is the
South African Chapter of the Internet Society and the
recognised abbreviation thereof shall be ISOC-ZA.“ We thus
understand that the Chapter was registered under this name
with the very specific aim of being an Internet Society
Chapter. <br>
> <br>
> Based on this, we hope you will be able to sign the
letter without the edits (see attached). The final deadline
for all Chapters to have their Charter letters signed is 31
December 2018.<br>
> <br>
> According to the Internet Society's Chapter processes,
as acknowledged by the Internet Society Board of Trustees
during their last meeting, Chapters that have not signed the
current version of the Chapter Charter letter will have to
be put into rejuvenation. See also: <a href="https://www.internetsociety.org/chapters/processes/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.internetsociety.org/chapters/processes/</a><br>
> <br>
> We hope we’ll be able to avoid that and look forward to
hearing from you. <br>
> <br>
> Best regards, <br>
> <br>
> Christine<br>
> <br>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> Internet Society (ISOC)<br>
> Christine Saegesser Baethge<br>
> Senior Manager Global Chapter Development<br>
> Website: <a href="http://www.InternetSociety.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">www.InternetSociety.org</a><br>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> > On 4. Oct 2018, at 13:41, Alan Levin <<a href="mailto:alan@isoc.org.za" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">alan@isoc.org.za</a>> wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> > Hi Christine,<br>
> > <br>
> > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 1:20 PM Christine Saegesser
<<a href="mailto:saegesser@isoc.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">saegesser@isoc.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> > The conclusion of that discussion is that we’d be
happy to make compromises on some of the minor edits you
made. <br>
> > <br>
> > Thanks, there are some minor improvements I can
make to them too. I also got some advice from an American
member... <br>
> > <br>
> > However, there are several reasons why we cannot
agree to the deletion of the points related to the use of
the Internet Society trademark, logos and independence. <br>
> > <br>
> > So after some consideration we are willing to
relinquish the logo, but the name Internet Society is our
name in our geography - we have been independently trading
with it since 1998 - and what we believe you consider the
"trademark". We will not relinquish our name :)<br>
> > <br>
> > How does that sound?<br>
> > <br>
> > Alan<br>
> > -- <br>
> > Alan Levin<br>
> > ----------------------------------<br>
> > Chairman ISOC-ZA<br>
> > +27 21 4882820 (ddi)<br>
> <br>
> <br>
>
<2018_ISOC_Chapter_Charter_Agreement-EN_for_signature.pdf>_______________________________________________<br>
> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are
automatically subscribed<br>
> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the
Internet Society<br>
> Chapter Portal (AMS): <a href="https://portal.isoc.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://portal.isoc.org</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="m_-6999121656575977688m_-5171823825414683314m_-4745964826337685737m_-7836023052036180845gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Alan
Levin</span><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">----------------------------------</span></div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Chairman
ISOC-ZA</span></div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">+27
21 4882820 (ddi)</span><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="m_-6999121656575977688m_-5171823825414683314m_-4745964826337685737m_-7836023052036180845mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="m_-6999121656575977688m_-5171823825414683314m_-4745964826337685737m_-7836023052036180845moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
Chapter Portal (AMS): <a class="m_-6999121656575977688m_-5171823825414683314m_-4745964826337685737m_-7836023052036180845moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://portal.isoc.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://portal.isoc.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="m_-6999121656575977688m_-5171823825414683314m_-4745964826337685737m_-7836023052036180845moz-signature" cols="72">--
Best regards,
Veni
<a class="m_-6999121656575977688m_-5171823825414683314m_-4745964826337685737m_-7836023052036180845moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.veni.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.veni.com</a>
pgp:5BA1366E <a class="m_-6999121656575977688m_-5171823825414683314m_-4745964826337685737m_-7836023052036180845moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:veni@veni.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">veni@veni.com</a>
The opinions expressed above are those of the
author, not of any organizations, associated
with or related to him in any given way. </pre>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed<br>
to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society<br>
Chapter Portal (AMS): <a href="https://portal.isoc.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://portal.isoc.org</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed</span><br><span>to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society</span><br><span>Chapter Portal (AMS): <a href="https://portal.isoc.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://portal.isoc.org</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed<br>
to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society<br>
Chapter Portal (AMS): <a href="https://portal.isoc.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://portal.isoc.org</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>