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text="#000000"><div style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: Optima;">Evan
Leibovitch wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMguqh0saoyBLUAqSrFjoT2_u_GDFTLEfw8qJk03HcWJ5sKmOA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div
class="gmail_quote">On 7
July 2014 09:45, Christian de Larrinaga <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:cdel@firsthand.net" target="_blank">cdel@firsthand.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:Optima;font-size:12pt"
bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Optima">This is
a curious argument. I've seen it on AT Large lists as if it actually
means something useful.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>No
need to insult points of view with which you disagree.</div></div></div></div>
</blockquote>Please do not try to shake the tree by personalising
arguments based on real observations of conversations from a number of
different people and organisations. <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMguqh0saoyBLUAqSrFjoT2_u_GDFTLEfw8qJk03HcWJ5sKmOA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:Optima;font-size:12pt"
bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Optima">As a registrant I have exactly
the same interest in keeping my whois registration record in working
order because I want to know if there is a problem and have a public
point of contact for people to reach me.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>And
a great many other registrants, myself included, share that view.
However the sentiment is not universal, which is where the differences
arise.</div>
<div><br></div><div>There is, for instance, a significant component of
the Non-Commercial Users Constituency within ICANN's GNSO that believes
that a registrant has the right to keep their contact data private and
hidden from you. They do not share your interest in having accessible,
working contact information.</div>
<div><br></div><div> <br>
</div></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I would distinguish between "technical" contact information which should
be accessible, from ownership and or administrative contact
data. I don't have a problem with owner / admin data being escrowed for
instance. <br>
<br>There are jurisdictions where this is both safe and competent to
protect privacy and law enforcement. <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMguqh0saoyBLUAqSrFjoT2_u_GDFTLEfw8qJk03HcWJ5sKmOA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:Optima;font-size:12pt"
bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Optima"> As a user I want to be
able to
reach the domain administrator so I can report problems and cross
reference registration data.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>On
that we absolutely agree.</div><div><br></div><div>But what if that
other domain administrators do not want to be reached? What if they
don't care about the kind of problems you would report? What if they are
deliberately trying to avoid you?</div>
<div><br></div></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I would distinguish between illegal or harmful uses from inconveniences
because you can't check who is behind a service. <br><br>Whois is not a
business register nor can it represent a trademark registry any more
than can a DNS record. Trying to retrofit this stuff without a ground up
restoration is a road to madness. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMguqh0saoyBLUAqSrFjoT2_u_GDFTLEfw8qJk03HcWJ5sKmOA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><div>The fact remains that there is a
significant component of the world of registrants that cares more about
their privacy than your ability to contact them. </div></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
There are good reasons for this in many cases. In fact there are legal
protections and in some cases constitutional protections that need to be
respected to keep some information private. WHOIS policy should not run
directly into
some of these issues. ICANN has no remit or scope to change these
things. <br><br>ICANN must not impose policy on more competent
institutions. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMguqh0saoyBLUAqSrFjoT2_u_GDFTLEfw8qJk03HcWJ5sKmOA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>There are other registrants who want to typo-squat or use
fraudulent domain names so they can pretend they're the Red Cross and
solicit funds from you. </div>
</div>
</div>
</div></blockquote>
<br>That is criminal and is a matter for police action. WHOIS may be one
convenient resource for policing but the reality is there needs to be
multiple lines of enquiry. WHOIS is not by any means designed or capable
of being a sole source of data to trace activities over data networks.
<br><br>
AT Large should be promoting for the examples you cite, law enforcement
education and encouraging jurisdictions to clarify their regulatory
environment for managing these issues so people using zones domiciled
administratively in those jurisdictions are clear about the environment
they are operating under. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMguqh0saoyBLUAqSrFjoT2_u_GDFTLEfw8qJk03HcWJ5sKmOA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>It is highly unlikely that these I suggest that the
interests of those registrants absolutely do not coincide with yours as a
user.</div>
<div><br></div></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote>Registrants are users of other domains too. <br><br>The
big
picture is that criminal or bad behaviour is available to people with or
without a domain name on the Internet. Being a registrant in the DNS
conveys no particular distinction on potential criminality or anti
social behaviour. It can enable some specific ways to conduct oneself
badly of course but that impacts "good registrants" just as much as it
does "good or bad users". In fact with the sort of policy attention
being proposed to split users into registrants and non registrants even
if they are the same person the onus and impacts on registrants looks
increasingly dire. A situation that will further discourage users from
taking control over their own Internet devices and resources. <br><br>If
we want Internet for everyone then the policy should be to encourage
users to be registrants, not the reverse.<br><br><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMguqh0saoyBLUAqSrFjoT2_u_GDFTLEfw8qJk03HcWJ5sKmOA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><div>It also does not appear that you are
domainer, who buys and sells domains primarily as commodity for a
significant source of income, The subset of registrants who share that
characteristic have different interests in ICANN than you or I, for
reasons that have nothing to do with accurate contact information,<br></div></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
Domainers are a problem but not because they are necessarily criminal.
If they don't keep domain information up to date that could be for much
the same reasons as any other registrant which can often be that they
have to use registrar tools and those are often pretty awful and their
interest in any one domain name is marginal. <br>
<br>But that state is a result of how ICANN has designed the DNS
"market". It and predecessors SAIC etc has encouraged perhaps
inadvertently a series of speculative bubbles. <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMguqh0saoyBLUAqSrFjoT2_u_GDFTLEfw8qJk03HcWJ5sKmOA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
</div>
<div><br></div><div>In ICANN At-Large we have identified quite a few
issues -- some of them significant -- where the interests of end users
and registrants are not aligned. </div></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote>
to quote a relevant aside by Fade during the London meetings on ICANN
activities being asked to talk about "user"
role. "ICANN doesn't do that". He then went on to talk on stage about
how users "pay for everything" and are therefore central to the ICANN
mission. <br>
<br>But that doesn't change the fact that ICANN is an industry body. It
does registry, registrar and a little in registrant work. What ICANN
does is structure registries and registrars to take money from
registrants to pay for itself and the supply chain. Users who are not
registrants have no voice because they do not pay into the ICANN
money-go-round.<br><br>The answer to building a broader and more
effective participation is for as many people on the Internet as
possible be registrants in the DNS. That is what is needed to make
Internet for everyone just as much as it is needed to force a greater
voice for users in the round in data network policy making.<br><br>Any
policy that makes it more onerous and less attractive for users to be
registrants is counter productive. We should be arguing for users to be
freed from these walled cyber gardens not picking on registrants as the
problem when in fact the problem lies with the ICANN policy process and
representation of registry and registrar operators. <br><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMguqh0saoyBLUAqSrFjoT2_u_GDFTLEfw8qJk03HcWJ5sKmOA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>These differences are indeed relevant to some, and indicate
that registrants cannot be thought to be surrogates for end users in
matters related to ICANN accountability.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></blockquote>
That is a very slippery slope. <br><br>Let's please keep ICANN as
narrowly focused as possible on management of Internet resources and
leave social, economic and competition policy to competent bodies. <br><blockquote
cite="mid:CAMguqh0saoyBLUAqSrFjoT2_u_GDFTLEfw8qJk03HcWJ5sKmOA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div
class="gmail_quote"><div>- Evan</div></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
Christian <br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>Christian de Larrinaga <br>
<br>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">@ FirstHand</span><br
style="font-weight: bold;">
-------------------------<br>
+44 7989 386778<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:cdel@firsthand.net">cdel@firsthand.net</a>
<br>
-------------------------<br>
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