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<DIV><SPAN class=640061516-04072014><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>How is
giving voting rights to people/organizations that voluntarily participate a
"poll tax"? Double voting applies also to corporate shareholders and is
accepted in that context.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><SPAN class=640061516-04072014>
<DIV><BR><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Best,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV></SPAN><SPAN class=640061516-04072014><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>Richard</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left><FONT size=2
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Alejandro Pisanty
[mailto:apisanty@gmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> vendredi, 4. juillet 2014
18:11<BR><B>To:</B> Vinton G. Cerf<BR><B>Cc:</B> ISOC Chapter Delegates;
Richard Hill<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Chapter-delegates] Internet Society
Appointments to theNTIA/IANA Stewardship Transition Coordination
Group<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P dir=ltr>This was rejected by most, years ago, because it is de facto a poll
tax and it is a double vote.</P>
<P dir=ltr>Alejandro Pisanty</P>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Jul 4, 2014 4:14 PM, "Vint Cerf" <<A
href="mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</A>> wrote:<BR
type="attribution">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr>separating businesses from individuals might still be a
problem. Hard to say whether voting would overcome some preferences for
anonymity in the database.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>v</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Richard Hill <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:rhill@hill-a.ch"
target=_blank>rhill@hill-a.ch</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>If registrants could vote, then
they would have an additional incentive to keep the WHOIS database up to
date. Same as corporate shareholders: if they want to vote, they
make sure that the company secretary has their current
address.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><SPAN>
<DIV><BR><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Best,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV></DIV></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial>Richard</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma>
<DIV>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Vint Cerf [mailto:<A
href="mailto:vint@google.com"
target=_blank>vint@google.com</A>]<BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> vendredi, 4. juillet 2014 16:48<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:rhill@hill-a.ch"
target=_blank>rhill@hill-a.ch</A><BR><B>Cc:</B> Evan Leibovitch; Chapter
Delegates<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Chapter-delegates] Internet Society
Appointments to theNTIA/IANA Stewardship Transition Coordination
Group<BR><BR></DIV></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>The WHOIS database would need to be a lot more solid, I
guess, to make that work. There is also the question of users who are
not domain name holders which draws me back to ALAC. I don't have
a good answer here except to say that the "election" in the early years
of ICANN proved problematic in many respects.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>v</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 10:21 AM, Richard Hill
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:rhill@hill-a.ch"
target=_blank>rhill@hill-a.ch</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Dear
Vint,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>I agree that it might not be
feasible to organize a global election of the ICANN Board ty the
citizens of the world, or by the users of the
Internet.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>That's why I suggest instead
that the ICANN Board be elected by registrants (holders) of domain
names. That is quite feasible using existing technologies and
databases. I realize that some registrants use anonimity services, but
it would be up to them to declare themselves as registrants if they
wish to participate in the election, if not they would simply be
absentees.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><SPAN>
<DIV><BR><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Best,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV></DIV></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial>Richard</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma>-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Vint Cerf [mailto:<A
href="mailto:vint@google.com"
target=_blank>vint@google.com</A>]<BR><B>Sent:</B> vendredi, 4.
juillet 2014 13:12<BR><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:rhill@hill-a.ch"
target=_blank>rhill@hill-a.ch</A><BR><B>Cc:</B> Evan Leibovitch;
Chapter Delegates<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Chapter-delegates]
Internet Society Appointments to theNTIA/IANA Stewardship Transition
Coordination Group<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Richard,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>the idea that there should be a global election for board
members of ICANN by citizens of the world and users of the Internet
was then and I think still is unworkable. Qualifying the electorate
and running a verifiable election (ie, free of fraud) via the
Internet is still out of the question. In places like Estonia where
strong authentication is available it appears possible to achieve
such an objective but this isn't feasible today on a global scale. I
think the At-Large mechanism is about the best one can do along
these lines for now.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>vint</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 1:46 AM, Richard Hill
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:rhill@hill-a.ch"
target=_blank>rhill@hill-a.ch</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Dear
Evan,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>I fully agree with you
that it would be better if ICANN were ultimately accountable to
all the world's Internet users (or maybe even to all the world's
people, since I believe we all want all people to use the
Internet).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>As you say below, the
initial structure of ICANN did allow for significant influence by
users, but this was later modified to reduce that
influence.<BR></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>If we can come up with a
practical scheme allowing all users to excercise control over
ICANN's accountability, I would be all for it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>If not, then at least
let's implement accountability by registrants, which is not
perfect (for the reasons you say) but surely better than the
current setup which has the drawbacks that you outline
below.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial><BR>Best,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial>Richard</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma>-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:evanleibovitch@gmail.com"
target=_blank>evanleibovitch@gmail.com</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:evanleibovitch@gmail.com"
target=_blank>evanleibovitch@gmail.com</A>]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Evan Leibovitch<BR><B>Sent:</B> jeudi, 3. juillet 2014
22:39<BR><B>To:</B> Richard Hill<BR><B>Cc:</B> Eric Burger;
Chapter Delegates<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Chapter-delegates]
Internet Society Appointments to theNTIA/IANA Stewardship
Transition Coordination Group<BR><BR></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 3 July 2014 12:09, Richard Hill <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:rhill@hill-a.ch"
target=_blank>rhill@hill-a.ch</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>In democracies, the
ultimate authority (parliament) is elected by all those
affected, it is not chosen by a
NomCom.</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>That's because the ICANN "Nominating Committee" is
misnamed.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>What ICANN has is a selection committee. A true
*NOMINATING* Committee would create a ballot of eligible
candidates from which an electorate would choose
representatives. It's that last little step -- having an
electorate -- that ICANN has consciously dispensed with. It's
why ICANN has worked so hard to evade the traditional structure
of nonprofits (such as our Chapter's) whose Boards are
accountable to a membership.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Once upon a time there were direct elections to ICANN,
which were gamed. The response to gaming was to eliminate
elections, rather than address the gaming issue. Perhaps that
over-reaction needs to be revisited, especially now that
e-voting tech has advanced so much lately.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>My suggestion is that the ultimate oversigh
for ICANN's economic regulatory function should be the
end-users, that is the registrants of domain names
(people/organizations that hold domain name
registrations).</BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>End users != registrants.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>This error occurs frequently within ICANN, and is a
constant source of required vigilance.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>End users are the people sitting at screens or on their
mobiles, who access the Internet without any need for a domain
name or intention to possess one. I reject the assertion by many
in the domain industry that everyone needs to own a domain, that
each person on earth is just a potential registrant who hasn't
yet been adequately marketed to.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Among the current family of registrants -- owning a
substantial chunk of the total domain name pool -- are name
speculators and squatters. ICANN's tolerance of their presence
creates artificial scarcity, raises the cost of Internet entry
to startup businesses, and causes legitimate site and brand
owners to needlessly register defensive names. (They also
dramatically inflate the total number of extant domains, which
is now arguably a source of ICANN's own financial dependence.
But that's a different thread.)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>In this family are also those who create domain names with
intent to defraud. This is why the Red Cross request for domain
name protection came in for special attention at the ICANN Board
recently (supported by the GAC and ALAC), why the lack of
enforced WHOIS accuracy has become a source of controversy, and
why the ALAC continues to challenge the utility of gTLD "Public
Interest Committments" over the protests of the domain
industry.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>So, Richard, I must take issue with your definition. While
the interests of registrants often have much in common with
those of end users, they are most certainly not 100% in sync and
occasionally in direct opposition.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Registrants have their own constituencies within the
"Non-Contracted House" half of ICANN's GNSO, from which they
protect their interests. That's not At-Large, which, like ISOC,
exists to assert the perspective of end-users -- the billions
outside ICANN's direct revenue stream who are nonetheless
impacted by its actions.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>- Evan</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>As
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