<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Michael & Folk</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">
Michael asked about other nations demanding "local control of data." It's becoming common. Below, NY Times on dispute between Korea and Google and Deutsche Welle on DT plans to have a "national Internet". I could find similar from India in a different context.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"> ISOC would be really foolish to jump into this one. After Snowden, many thoughtful and reasonable people want their government to protect them from American surveillance. National laws can certainly interfere with the smooth running of the Internet, which is unfortunate. The world is paying a very heavy price for the pervasiveness of the surveillance state, and hiccups in Internet efficiency may develop.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Of course some countries will use "security" as an excuse for harmful protectionism. But remember protectionism is not always harmful; since Adam Smith and David Ricardo, economists have supported protecting "infant industries." A reflexive "free trade" position is simply bad economics; especially when we are talking about developing countries, the particular case needs to be examined. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"> ISOC, as a U.S. based organization with strong ties to the U.S. government, needs to be particularly thoughtful about positions that undermine other nations security. In addition, Google and other U.S. companies clearly are affected by restrictions on access to markets. The U.S. government at WCIT took several positions that were clearly inspired by the needs of U.S. companies, not a desire for "freedom." The U.S., like most other nations, compromises our ideals in the mercantilist interest of our ig companies. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"> That's not ISOC's role, especially because we are compromised by taking contributions from the same companies.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"> Dave Burstein</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">
<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"> <span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:2.4em;line-height:1.083em">Google Jousts With Wired South Korea Over Quirky Internet Rules</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><h6 class="" style="margin:2px 0px;color:rgb(128,128,128);font-size:1em;line-height:1.2em;font-weight:normal;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">By <span><a href="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/eric_pfanner/index.html" rel="author" title="More Articles by ERIC PFANNER" style="color:rgb(102,102,153);text-decoration:none">ERIC PFANNER</a></span></h6>
<h6 class="" style="margin:0px;color:rgb(128,128,128);font-size:1em;line-height:1.2em;font-weight:normal;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Published: October 13, 2013</h6><div class="" style="float:right;margin:5px 0px 5px 5px;width:134px;min-height:200px">
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</ul></div></div><div class="" style="margin-top:1.5em;margin-bottom:1.7em"><span></span><p style="margin:0px;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">SEOUL, South Korea — South Korea is one of the world’s most digitally advanced countries. It has ubiquitous broadband, running at speeds that many Americans can only envy. Its Internet is also one of the most quirky in the world.</p>
</div><div class="" style="float:left;clear:left;display:inline;width:190px;margin:6px 15px 10px 0px!important"><div class="" style="margin-bottom:12px;clear:both;width:190px"><div class="" style="margin-bottom:2px"><div class="" style="padding-left:16px;text-align:right;margin-bottom:2px;background-repeat:no-repeat no-repeat">
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<a style="color:rgb(102,102,153);display:block"><span><img src="http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/10/14/business/koreaweb/koreaweb-articleInline.jpg" width="190" height="127" alt="" style="border: none;"></span></a></div>
<h6 class="" style="margin:0px 0px 3px;color:rgb(144,144,144);font-size:0.9em;line-height:1.223em;font-weight:normal;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;text-align:right">Jean Chung for The New York Times</h6><p class="" style="margin:0px;font-size:1.1em;line-height:1.2727em;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(102,102,102)">
A bus stop in Seoul. Google Maps can provide directions only for public transportation in Korea.</p></div><div class="" style="margin-bottom:0px;clear:both;padding-top:12px;background-image:url(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/global/borders/doubleRule.gif);background-color:transparent;margin-left:10px;margin-right:7px;width:auto!important;border-width:0px!important;background-repeat:repeat no-repeat">
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Add to Portfolio</h3><ul class="" style="margin:0px 0px 1em;list-style:none;padding-left:0px"><li style="font-size:1.2em;line-height:1.25em;background-image:none;padding:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/14/business/international/google-jousts-with-south-koreas-piecemeal-internet-rules.html" style="color:rgb(102,102,153);text-decoration:none;font-size:1em;background-image:url(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/apps/mytimes/add_content.gif);background-color:transparent;display:block;font-weight:bold;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;padding:4px 0px 3px 22px;background-repeat:no-repeat no-repeat">Google Inc</a></li>
</ul><p class="" style="margin:2px 0px 0px;font-size:1.1em;line-height:1.182em;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><a href="http://markets.on.nytimes.com/research/portfolio/view/view.asp#sda" style="color:rgb(102,102,153);text-decoration:none">Go to your Portfolio »</a></p>
</div></div></div><div class="" style="margin-top:1.5em;margin-bottom:1.7em"><p style="margin:0px 0px 1em;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,'times new roman',times,serif">A curfew restricts school-age children from playing online games at night; adults wanting to do so need to provide their resident registration numb</p>
<p style="margin:0px 0px 1em;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,'times new roman',times,serif">Travelers who want to go from Gimpo International Airport to the Gangnam neighborhood of Seoul cannot rely on Google Maps. Google Maps can provide directions only for public transport, not for driving, to any place in Korea. Anyone crazy enough to try the journey on bicycle or on foot, directions for which Google Maps provides elsewhere, will be similarly stymied.</p>
<p style="margin:0px 0px 1em;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,'times new roman',times,serif">The highly regulated Internet comes as a surprise to many people, Koreans included, because South Korea is a strong democracy with a vibrant economy seemingly ready for the digital information age. South Koreans were early adopters of Internet games and smartphones. It has world-beating electronics companies like Samsung and LG. But here the Internet is just different.</p>
<p style="margin:0px 0px 1em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,'times new roman',times,serif"><span style="line-height:1.467em">South Korean security restrictions that were put in place after the Korean War limit Google’s maps, the company says. The export of map data is barred, ostensibly to prevent it from falling into the hands of South Korea’s foe to the north, across the world’s most heavily fortified border. Google and other foreign Internet companies say the rule also prevents them from providing online mapping services, like navigation, that travelers have come to rely on in much of the rest of the world.</span><br>
</p><p style="margin:0px 0px 1em;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,'times new roman',times,serif">The Korea Communications Standards Commission, a regulatory panel, blocks material on the Web that it deems objectionable. This can include pornography, the production of which is technically illegal in South Korea.</p>
<p style="margin:0px 0px 1em;font-size:1.5em;line-height:1.467em;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,'times new roman',times,serif">Foreign Internet companies say the country’s rules prevent them from competing against domestic rivals because they cannot provide the same services they do elsewhere. South Korea is one of the few major markets where Google is not the leading search engine. A <a title="The Web site. " href="http://www.naver.com/" style="color:rgb(102,102,153)">South Korean rival, Naver,</a> has the most users.</p>
<h4 class="" style="font-weight:normal;font-size:12px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;text-transform:uppercase;color:rgb(0,70,143);letter-spacing:0.1em;margin:0px 20px 0px 0px;padding:20px 0px 0px;border-top-width:1px;border-top-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(211,207,202)">
INTERNET</h4><h1 style="font-weight:normal;font-size:35px;line-height:40px;font-family:Georgia,Times,serif;border-top-width:1px;border-top-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(211,207,202);padding:20px 0px;margin:0px 20px 0px 0px;color:rgb(62,62,62)">
Deutsche Telekom plans for a 'national internet'</h1><p class="" style="font-size:17px;line-height:25px;font-family:Georgia,Times,serif;margin:0px;padding:0px 40px 12px 0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Deutsche Telekom contemplates a 'national internet' in which data and emails go only through domestic lines. Experts are skeptical about this idea.</p>
<div class="" style="margin:0px;padding:7px 20px 10px 0px;float:none;width:700px;clear:both;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:medium"></div><div class="" style="font-size:15px;line-height:25px;font-family:Georgia,Times,serif;color:rgb(62,62,62);margin-bottom:30px">
<p style="margin:0px;padding:0px 40px 12px 0px">Deutsche Telekom reacted to the National Security Agency scandal with a new slogan, "National Routing" intending to keep data, and protection thereof, within the country. With this new proposal the biggest German telecommunication company is trying to regain lost consumer confidence. "The idea is, contrary to today's common practice, that data from a German sender to a German recipient will not be sent through another country," <a href="http://www.dw.de/deutsche-telekom-internet-data-made-in-germany-should-stay-in-germany/a-17165891" target="_blank" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(0,135,235)">said Philipp Blank, Telekom's spokesman</a>.</p>
<p style="margin:0px;padding:0px 40px 12px 0px">This policy will encompass emails and other data traffic. Telekom wants to avoid data going through allegedly bugged intersections in foreign countries. Telekom suggests that the system will later be expanded to the Schengen area.</p>
</div><div><br></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:09 AM, Michael Kende <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kende@isoc.org" target="_blank">kende@isoc.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-word">
<div>Hello, to further this discussion and our understanding of the issues, does anyone have examples of other countries that are considering data localisation requirements such as this and the one that Brazil is discussing? Are there any specifics available
to help analyse what is being proposed? Do you think they are likely to succeed? And last but not least, what are your views on the policy considerations and potential impact of the measures?</div>
<div>Thanks in advance,</div>
<div>Michael </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style="border-right:medium none;padding-right:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-bottom:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;padding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Gary Wayne Kenward <<a href="mailto:garykenward@ieee.org" target="_blank">garykenward@ieee.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Thursday, November 7, 2013 5:12 PM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Veni Markovski <<a href="mailto:veni@veni.com" target="_blank">veni@veni.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>Chapter Delegates <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Chapter-delegates] Nicaragua's internet is in trouble<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div class="h5">
I do not know the full extent of the situation in Nicaragua. Simply from face value, I would suggest that a nation taking control over information flow for the purposes of protecting the privacy of their citizens is a positive move. And I would expect to see
this practice become more common.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Clearly, such regulatory action is open for abuse. However, so is the unfettered flow of information outside of a nations borders.</div>
</div></div><div><div><div class="h5"><br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is my understanding that when the USA introduced the Patriot Act, the Canadian government issues a directive to all federal government organizations to ensure that all electronic data was transported and stored within our national borders. I believe
that the provincial organizations followed suit.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The rationale was simply to ensure protection of all private information managed by federal government organizations.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In my view, they did not go far enough. It is a frequently stated view that Canada's privacy regulations regarding electronic information are not strong enough. Commercial and consumer traffic are frequently routed through the US and many (but not all)
application service providers use US based data warehousing. This should be stopped or at least mitigated.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Canadian's have a different view of privacy versus security from US citizens. While keeping electronic data within national borders does not provide 100% protection (nothing really can), it does goes a long way to ensure that privacy is protected by Canadian
law (and what little International law applies).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div></div><div>Gary<br>
<div><br>
<div><div><div class="h5">
<div>On 2013.11.07, at 7:49 AM, Veni Markovski <<a href="mailto:veni@veni.com" target="_blank">veni@veni.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br>
</div></div><blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div><div class="h5"><font face="Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">It looks like many countries are trying to do similar stuff, but are using different arguments to explain why.
<br>
Alejandro, from what you say, it looks almost that the credit card companies (MasterCard, Visa) will stop offer their products in Nicaragua, as they would hardly agree to keep data bases there.<br>
<br>
v.<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<div>On 11/07/13 01:01, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Hi Elver,
I just went through the text for the whole new Constitution of Nicaragua, prompted by your note from a few hours ago.
It definitely does include (in article 92) provisions for databases hat must stay in the territory and spectrum that must stay in the state's control.
It is not absolutely clear to me whether this is for all databases or only those belonging to the Army, or pertaining to national security, because of the article in which these provisions are stated.
At any rate indirect information and opinions I heard as recently as two days ago from expert visitors to Nicaragua, things are indeed dire.
Yours,
Alejandro Pisanty
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
Facultad de Química UNAM
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________________________________________
Desde: <a href="mailto:chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org</a> [<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org</a>] en nombre de Elver Loho [<a href="mailto:elver.loho@gmail.com" target="_blank">elver.loho@gmail.com</a>]
Enviado el: miércoles, 06 de noviembre de 2013 14:04
Hasta: Chapter Delegates
Asunto: [Chapter-delegates] Nicaragua's internet is in trouble
Hi everyone,
Just got pinged by friends in Nicaragua that their government is
planning constitutional reforms to take control of the internet:
<a href="http://www-ni.laprensa.com.ni/2013/11/06/ambito/168983-telcor-redes-sociales-hay" target="_blank">http://www-ni.laprensa.com.ni/2013/11/06/ambito/168983-telcor-redes-sociales-hay</a>
If someone on this list is in the area, or familiar with the
situation, please provide further information and, if it's serious,
please beat some sense into these legislators. (Feel free to forward
this email to relevant parties.)
Should it really be as bad as the article makes it sound, it would
make sense for the ISOC regional HQ to send their own delegation to
meet the government.
Best,
Elver
.ee
<a href="mailto:elver.loho@gmail.com" target="_blank">elver.loho@gmail.com</a>
<a href="tel:%2B372%205661%206933" value="+37256616933" target="_blank">+372 5661 6933</a>
skype: elver.loho
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<br>
</div></div><pre cols="72"><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">--
Best,
Veni Markovski
<a href="http://www.veni.com/" target="_blank">http://www.veni.com</a><a href="https://www.facebook.com/venimarkovski" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/venimarkovski</a><a href="https://twitter.com/veni" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/veni</a></font></span><div class="im">
The opinions expressed above are those of the
author, not of any organizations, associated
with or related to him in any given way. </div></pre>
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Chapter Portal (AMS): <a href="https://portal.isoc.org" target="_blank">https://portal.isoc.org</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Editor, Fast Net News, Net Policy News and A Wireless Cloud<br>
Author with Jennie Bourne DSL (Wiley, 2002) and Web Video: Making It Great, Getting It Noticed (Peachpit, 2008)</div>
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