<div dir="ltr">Hi Baburam,<div><br><div style>Thanks for coming forward in giving a way out for the cambodian chapter. However, I do differ in certain points with you. </div><div style><br></div><div style>There is a slight difference between the so called NGO's and ISOC. That means unlike NGOs ISOC does not need to engage in direct conflicts with the governments. Rather ISOC works in cooperation with the governments and other stakeholders. It is very important for ISOC chapters to keep a neutral image and carry a voice that considers everyones opinion. The chapter leaders need to lead the chapter wisely with patience.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>The sole purpose of ISOC chapters is to work in per with the ISOC globals mission. Having said so, ISOC global has the full rights to change the status of a chapter if the chapter fails to comply. ISOC has given a lot of flexibility to the local chapters to work in their own jurisdiction. It looks odd to me if ISOC global decides to de-activate a malfunctioning chapter and the chapter continue to work keeping ISOC's name but as an independent NGO.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Like you said, registering as NGO has to fulfill a lot of requirements. In my country it is simply impossible to register as an NGO due to strict government regulations in the past few years. However, you can register as a society which works great for us. Keeping an office for a new chapter is sometimes not an option and it might be very difficult to maintain as well. </div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Lastly, I differ from the allegations of the Cambodian chapter about the support from ISOC regional office. We have always get their support when ever we needed. </div><div style><br></div>
<div style>Thanks</div><div style>Faisal Hasan, PhD</div><div style>ISOC Bangladesh Dhaka Chapter</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 11:55 PM, Baburam Aryal <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:babu@isoc.org.np" target="_blank">babu@isoc.org.np</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear All<div>This is serious issue one of Chapter is considering dissolution. As a chapter leader, I never expect such situation. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Last year when I was there in Cambodia and had a brief meeting with the then Chapter President Norbert and discussed the chapter's plight and relation with HQ or Regional Office. </div>
<div><br></div><div>In Nepal</div><div>We had also similar situation here in Nepal. When you incorporate any NGO, you have to register at local administration office and must identify where your office would be located? We also need recommendation of Ward office of Municipality and District Development Committee. Local Administration also seek character certificate of proposed committee members from Police. Once you register, you have to register at local office of inland revenue office for PAN. For pan, you have to have a contract with a landlord where your office is registered and 6 months house rent tax has to be paid in advance to the government. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Is this possible to run with out registering?</div><div>Simply, No. When you have to negotiate or deal with the government at various stages, that time you are not recognized. Yeah, you can occupy street, but not represent at formal places. </div>
<div><br></div><div>ISOC Activities in Local Jurisdiction</div><div>I'm also with the opinion and we have discussed this issue in committee many times and committee is with the same opinion that any ISOC involvement most be notified to the local chapter whether they have any official visit or granting any fund to individual member. This keeps a good rapport among HQ and its members. </div>
<div><br></div><div>What we did?</div><div>When we were recognized in 2007, we acted as loose network only. We encountered with some problem and rejuvenated in 2008. Since the rejuvenation to August 2012 ISOC Nepal's office remained at my office. We submitted that the same house as address and asked my landlord to give a contract on behalf of ISOC Nepal as well. I was General Secretary when we officially founded ISOC Nepal and registered at local administration. Still, ISOC Nepal Office is combined at my office however ISOC Nepal bears the cost it occupies. We have a staff as well. We are able to bear this as we had got few research opportunities and other activities [NOT FROM ISOC HQ]. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Suggestion, </div><div>If office space is only the cause for the dissolution, any one member can come forward and adopt similar model what we experienced. Once you start, then you will get support from the stakeholder. It is not necessarily to be much dependent to ISOC HQ. As Internet Society Nepal, we have indipendent status in Nepal and will remain even if ISOC HQ scraps its affiliation. According to our local law, now no one can register Internet Society Nepal even if HQ pours any sum. I mean, we need to act Independently in some extent. </div>
<div><br></div><div>We need Cambodia Chapter</div><div>Cambodia is special chapter for the cause of ISOC. I had first hand experience how people are afraid to speak and express. Existence of ISOC Cambodia will help people to exercise FOE. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Thank you very much. </div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 8:45 AM, Veni Markovski <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:veni@veni.com" target="_blank">veni@veni.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
I don't quite follow why it has to be an NGO? <br>
There are articles in the Civic code, which makes it possible to
have an entity, without legally registering it. I am sure that such
provisions exist in other laws (may be not all over the globe). To
become a chapter does not require to be a registered in court
non-profit. <br>
<br>
Right?<div><div><br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 09/23/13 22:56, <a href="mailto:info@isoc.org.ec" target="_blank">info@isoc.org.ec</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Several Chapters face the same kind of problems. We need work
with support of several volunteers and partners because simply
to have an office is not only to have a place.. It means to have
people, pay taxes, social security for employees and legal
representatives, accounting people, plus office equipment and
much much more. Even If you share some space office you need a
contract and so. Because of this, HQ made this very flexible and
one way is not to be a formal NGO. Maybe this can work changing
the bylaws</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Carlos Vera <br>
<br>
<div>Internet Society Ecuador</div>
<div><a href="http://www.isoc.org.ec" target="_blank">www.isoc.org.ec</a></div>
Síguenos @isocec</div>
<div><br>
El 23/09/2013, a las 3:45, Chantra Be <<a href="mailto:chantra.be@gmail.com" target="_blank">chantra.be@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000066"><span style="font-family:arial;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Dear
Chapter Representatives,</span></div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000066">
<span style="font-family:arial;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Dear
ISOC central and Asia-Pacific leaders and staff,</span></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<p> <br>
This mail is written after long considerations in the
Executive Committee of the ISOC Cambodia Chapter,
discussed together with the members of our Advisory
Board.<br>
<br>
It is to propose – unless real and practical
alternatives are identified within the following month
– to call a meeting of all members of our Chapter for
the purpose of taking a vote to dissolve the ISOC
Cambodia Chapter.<br>
<br>
We are looking forward to responses from all
concerned recipients of this mail.<br>
<br>
The reasons for considering this serious step can
be summarized under the following three headings:<br>
<br>
1. Structural Constraints<br>
2. Experiences<br>
3. Impressions <br>
<br>
<br>
1. Structural Constraints<br>
<br>
The Cambodia Chapter of the Internet Society
started to function in 2010, since 2011 under revised
Bylaws - designed according to advice from ISOC
international, before voted upon by our membership,
which say among others:<br>
<br>
<strong> Article I. - Name<br>
<br>
2. The Chapter shall be established as a
non-profit organization under the laws of Cambodia.</strong><br>
<br>
The Executive Committee of the ISOC Cambodia
Chapter tried to implement the requirement in Number 2
above, by contacting the relevant section of the
Ministry of the Interior. It turned out that the legal
setting up of a non-profit organization would require
to follow specific regulations in which a physical
office (not only a point of communication) has to be
established and operated.<br>
<br>
Our efforts to receive financial assistance from
ISOC international (an organization with a budget
self-described as “In 2011, ISOC projects that total
revenues will exceed $30 million for the first time”)
were turned down, as the priorities set there do not
include institutional support for Chapters. The advice
to do substantive local fund raising would have
required in our situation to be an established
organization already.<br>
Without such assistance, we do not see it possible
to set up and operate an office for the ISOC Cambodia
Chapter according to the legal national registration
framework.<br>
<br>
2. Experiences (with some quotes from the past)<br>
<br>
When, in August 2012, Ms. Duangthip Chomprang, the
ISOC Manager for Regional Affairs (Asia) from the Asia
Pacific Regional Office, announced to visit Cambodia,
we welcomed this as an opportunity to discuss our
situation with her. Unfortunately, she refused to have
a meeting with our chapter to discuss our problems. In
response the following mail was sent to her and to the
other ISOC regional staff in Singapore, after due
deliberations with our Advisory Board and Executive
Committee:<br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------<br>
Subject Message from our Advisory Board and the
Executive Committee<br>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 15:40:15 +0700<br>
From: President of ISOC Cambodia <<a href="mailto:president@isoc-kh.org" target="_blank">president@isoc-kh.org</a>><br>
To: Duangthip Chomprang <<a href="mailto:chomprang@isoc.org" target="_blank">chomprang@isoc.org</a>>,
Rajnesh Singh <<a href="mailto:singh@isoc.org" target="_blank">singh@isoc.org</a>><br>
CC: Ong Pisey <<a href="mailto:treasurer@isoc-kh.org" target="_blank">treasurer@isoc-kh.org</a>><br>
<br>
<strong> Dear Thip,<br>
<br>
After having received your mail, rejecting our
request to serious discuss the crisis for our
Chapter, created as a result of the general
situation and legal requirements in Cambodia in the
meeting, and the refusal to ISOC staff to positively
pay attention to our situation, we do not think it
would be appropriate to cooperate, as a Chapter,
with organizing a meeting for your 1 - 2.5 hours
event, for which you would like to invite the
Members of the Cambodia Chapter and other
non-Chapter members. To discuss fundamental problems
within ISOC, affecting the whole membership, only
among officers, as you suggest (which has been tried
in vain by email so far) would not be in line with
our history to promote and practice open
communication – high values regularly lifted up
among the goals of the Internet Society world wide
and in its slogan: the Internet is for everyone.<br>
<br>
The situation and this response has been shared
and discussed with the Members of the Advisory Board
of our Chapter and is unanimously supported.<br>
<br>
Norbert Klein<br>
President, ISOC-KH</strong><br>
<br>
<br>
The five members of our Advisory Board at that
time were (reflecting the stipulation of our Bylaws
“The Advisory Board of five members, from important
sections of the ISOC Cambodia Chapter membership”):<br>
<br>
the Head of the IT in Education Section in the
Ministry of Education<br>
the Editor in Chief of a leading Cambodian
daily newspaper, who is at the same time President of
the Club of Cambodian Journalists<br>
the President and CEO of a major broadband
providing ISP<br>
a senior staff member in the office of the
Council of Ministers of the Government of Cambodia,
and<br>
one student.<br>
<br>
<br>
Nevertheless, I and the former president of the
ISOC Cambodia Chapter participated in the meeting
which Ms. Duangthip Chomprang organized to present her
PowerPoint slides about the Internet Society. There
was even one with a headline related to human rights
concerns – but the rest of this page of this slide was
blank, and she quickly explained that such issues are
not dealt with here, because they are new for ISOC.<br>
<br>
Our Chapter never received any sign that Mr.
Rajnesh Singh, the ISOC Regional Bureau Director for
Asia-Pacific – nor other ISOC personnel - were
concerned how to find a solution for the dilemma we
were facing. Actually, during the years of our
existence as a Chapter, we never received any mail
whatsoever from the ISOC Regional Bureau Director
Asia-Pacific, except for circular announcements.<br>
<br>
Subsequently, mail to the ISOC Manager for
Regional Affairs (Asia) did not receive any response.<br>
<br>
This attitude of ISOC Regional Staff, refusing to
discuss with us our problems, resulted already in the
September 2012 Annual General Meeting in
disappointment and restricted expectations towards the
ISOC international setup.<br>
<br>
When ISOC staff is discussing "standard
performance" of Chapters, how is "standard
performance" defined and measured? Only for Chapters?
Is it standard performance that a Regional Officer
announces and brings non-members to a "Meet and greet"
(who say that two hours ago they did not know what the
Internet Society is), but the Regional Officer
encourages them to become members - OK - and to stand
as candidate two weeks later for Chapter leadership? -
Is it standard procedure that I learn from a mailing
list that the Regional Office is "working within the
government to provide more support and knowledge" – we
do not know until now what this is. Who is monitoring
performance over what?<br>
<br>
When the Cambodian government mandated internet
cafe owners to set up surveillance cameras in their
shops and register the names of all customers - <a href="http://thediplomat.com/asean-beat/2012/12/27/cambodias-war-on-internet-cafes" target="_blank">http://thediplomat.com/asean-beat/2012/12/27/cambodias-war-on-internet-cafes</a>
– in 2012, and later declared almost all Internet
cafes in the capital city to be illegal as they were
closer than 500 m to any school </p>
<p> <a href="http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5062&Itemid=207" target="_blank">http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5062&Itemid=207</a></p>
<p> and</p>
<p> <a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=Penh+%22500+meter%22+internet+cafe+school&lr=&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=DHktUsr4M4fRkgXZt4CgBQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=564#facrc=_&imgrc=vHrInVRwY-NCdM%3A%3BB07fhLsihMLmKM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Flivinginpp.files.wordpress.com%252F2012%252F12%252F874-map-internetbuffer_zoom-1.jpg%253Fw%253D459%2526h%253D600%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Falfredmeier.me%252F2012%252F12%25" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/search?q=Penh+%22500+meter%22+internet+cafe+school&lr=&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=DHktUsr4M4fRkgXZt4CgBQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=564#facrc=_&imgrc=vHrInVRwY-NCdM%3A%3BB07fhLsihMLmKM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Flivinginpp.files.wordpress.com%252F2012%252F12%252F874-map-internetbuffer_zoom-1.jpg%253Fw%253D459%2526h%253D600%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Falfredmeier.me%252F2012%252F12%25</a>
2F15%252Fcomplete-ban-on-internet-cafes-in-central-phnom-penh%252F%3B459%3B600</p>
<p> - a number of legally established NGOs raised
their voices together, addressing such actions of the
authorities; the ISOC Cambodia Chapter was not part of
it, as we are – legally speaking – a non entity. And
surely this would also not have helped the “local
fundraising” which ISOC staff outside of our situation
had recommended<br>
<br>
3. Impressions (again with some quotes from the
past from the Chapter-Delegates List)<br>
<br>
During the following months a process of
discussion for a revision of the bylaws of ISOC
international was going on, reflected also on the
Chapter Delegates List. During this process, a number
of other ISOC Chapter representatives were hoping for
a revision which would give a clearer position to the
Chapters – as “members” of ISOC with a substantial
representation on the ISOC Board of Trustees - so that
members concerns would have an institutional voice in
ISOC decision making (former voices from the Chapters
List: “...the Board does not yet understand that the
primary role of many Chapters locally and in other
contexts is as participants in Civil Society. From
that point of view a 50:50 representation on the Board
of Chapters on the one hand and the industry on the
other hand would be more appropriate - and would I
believe be applauded internationally”). – “There is
still no overarching statement... as to the objectives
of the ISOC. This would be useful, particularly if it
clearly specified the civil society dimension of the
work of the Internet Society” - that such a hope was
considered to be not important for formalistic reasons
by ISOC central staff shows exactly the reason, why
there is such a wide discrepancy to the expectations
of Chapters in certain societies.<br>
<br>
The greetings on the ISOC Portal: “Join - Join
today and help shape the future of the internet”
create assumptions which are not substantiated in the
ISOC structures.<br>
<br>
The results of the ISOC bylaws revision show again
a top down structure, where the Chapters of ISOC are
not Members of ISOC, but are under the oversight of
ISOC international, and ISOC international continues
to regulate chapter affairs (a possible area of
tension or conflict “...might be good to point out
that in some countries such a document might as well
go against national laws, in the best case, or be
considered as an attempt to spread foreign influence
in the country {which, again in some cases, might be
illegal}”), including the possibility to suspend a
Chapter, while ISOC international does not seem to
have a similar procedure of suspending an
Organizational Members from industry, in case their
position might be in conflict with fundamental values
of the Internet Society.<br>
<br>
In spite of the ISOC slogan “The Internet is for
everyone” it's setup does not show this orientation
clearly. When a member enters the Member Login on the
ISOC portal here:<br>
<br>
<a href="https://portal.isoc.org/EBusiness/Home.aspx" target="_blank">https://portal.isoc.org/EBusiness/Home.aspx</a><br>
<br>
(is it for “business” that one enters?) one is
greeted with<br>
<br>
“Make a Contribution”<br>
“Contributions are fully tax-deductible!”<br>
“Donate”<br>
<br>
In how many of the countries where there are ISOC
members is this true – contributions to ISOC are
tax-deductible?<br>
<br>
That there is a wide difference of opinions about
the nature of ISOC became obvious time and again on
the Chapter-Delegates list; I quote just some
examples:<br>
<br>
Some ISOC old time members took “strong exception
to an infographic” or said “my jaw dropped when I saw
this” infographic, originating from the World Economic
Forum about “The Future of the Internet,” which had
been recommended for distribution and wide use by ISOC
leadership. - The problem is not that there are
different opinions; the problem is that it seems that
such fundamental differences of opinion do not have an
appropriate platform for discussion towards a broader
or even common understanding.<br>
<br>
Who is ISOC when the Chapters are not Members?
“...there are NOT two parties. There is one: the
Internet Society.” - “But what we have got.... is an
exceedingly one-sided dispute resolution policy! In
this context, who is ISOC? Clearly, the employed staff
have no mandate or authorization to exercise powers
over Chapters. So, who is going to do these things:
'place ... in a probationary state', etc.”<br>
<br>
At a former time it was stated on the
Chapter-delegates List: “So as the paper is today: why
should any chapter want to sign it? Would you sign a
contract that only holds obligations but rather no
benefits? Even not if you would be willing to fulfill
the obligations! Or is the benefit in being a chapter
as such? In using the name 'Internet Society' (as the
Internet Society of China does)? Rather not - we are
membership organization and any subgroup of members
can probably organize themselves as e.g. 'Open ISOC
Members Circle, Miami West' or so. - So if ISOC
expects a commitment from its chapters it should
commit something in turn.”<br>
<br>
Conclusion<br>
<br>
Given this situation of not having a “listening
ear” in ISOC and responses from ISOC international or
regional for our concerns, we suggest to our members
to start the dissolution of the ISOC Cambodia Chapter
– and to do it in an ordinary way according to the
Bylaws:<br>
<br>
<strong> Article XII. - Dissolution of the Chapter<br>
1. Dissolution of this Chapter by consent of the
members shall consist of unanimous agreement of all
its officers together with a majority vote at a
meeting which has been publicized in advance to all
members of the Chapter for the purpose of taking
this vote.<br>
</strong><br>
We would therefore call for such a meeting to
discuss the dissolution of our Chapter, or not to do
so in case practical and timely ways would show up
within one months from sending out this mail. Such a
meeting shall be convened as follows:<br>
<br>
Location: #8, St. 352, BKK1, Phnom Penh (Open
Institute new office)<br>
Date and Time: October 26, 2013 at 2:00PM<br>
<br>
We regret to see no other way but to suggest these
steps.<br>
<br>
At the same time I would like to state that the
use of the Internet in our country has bee increasing
considerably, and in all of these, members of our
Chapter are involved:<br>
<br>
There are over 1,100,000 Facebook users,<br>
BarCamps - <a href="http://barcamp.org/w/page/405173/TheRulesOfBarCamp" target="_blank">http://barcamp.org/w/page/405173/TheRulesOfBarCamp</a>
- have not only been held annually since 2008 in the
capital city of Phnom Penh with hundreds of
participants every time, but also in six provincial
centers during the last and the present years,<br>
a self-organized Hackerspace center - <a href="http://hackerspaces.org/wiki" target="_blank">http://hackerspaces.org/wiki</a>
- is in operation since some years providing a space
for hard- and software learning and exchange,<br>
Last year, our Chapter invited the top
leadership of all ISPs and all Mobile Phone Providers
in Cambodia, in response to communications with the
Asia Pacific Network Information Center -<a href="http://www.apnic.net" target="_blank">http://www.apnic.net</a> - to a
meeting with the APNIC Director on IPv6. Recently, the
Director General of the Ministry of Post informed us
that subsequent discussions with APNIC will lead to
establish IPv6 systems in Cambodia in 2014.<br>
Recently, after informal operations for two
years with local enthusiasm and international support
towards its establishment, “Open Development Cambodia”
- <a href="http://www.opendevelopmentcambodia.net" target="_blank">www.opendevelopmentcambodia.net</a>
- an online hub compiling freely available data to
help consolidate access to up-to-date information and
maps about land usage, land concessions and other
critically important information related to the
economic and political developments of the country. It
was established as a non-profit organization under the
laws of Cambodia. Both I and our former Chapter
president were involved in these efforts, and we were
now invited to be on their Board of Directors.<br>
<br>
I mention these examples to indicate that the
communication society in Cambodia is very active. No
coordinating body exists in the country for questions
of human rights and communication freedom. We regret
that our efforts to establish an ISOC Chapter did not
receive the necessary institutional support.<br>
</p>
<p>Be Chantra<br>
Secretary, ISOC Cambodia Chapter<br>
<a href="mailto:chantra.be@gmail.com" target="_blank">chantra.be@gmail.com</a></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are
automatically subscribed</span><br>
<span>to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the
Internet Society</span><br>
<span>Chapter Portal (AMS): <a href="https://portal.isoc.org" target="_blank">https://portal.isoc.org</a></span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
Chapter Portal (AMS): <a href="https://portal.isoc.org" target="_blank">https://portal.isoc.org</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div><div><pre cols="72">--
Best,
Veni Markovski
<a href="http://www.veni.com" target="_blank">http://www.veni.com</a>
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/venimarkovski" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/venimarkovski</a>
<a href="https://twitter.com/veni" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/veni</a>
The opinions expressed above are those of the
author, not of any organizations, associated
with or related to him in any given way. </pre>
</div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed<br>
to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society<br>
Chapter Portal (AMS): <a href="https://portal.isoc.org" target="_blank">https://portal.isoc.org</a><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br></font></span></blockquote></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Advocate Babu Ram Aryal<br>President,<br>Internet Society [ISOC] Nepal Chapter<br>
Anamnagar, Kathmandu<br>Nepal <br><br>Cell: <a href="tel:%2B977-9851048401" value="+9779851048401" target="_blank">+977-9851048401</a><br>
</font></span></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed<br>
to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society<br>
Chapter Portal (AMS): <a href="https://portal.isoc.org" target="_blank">https://portal.isoc.org</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>