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+1<br>
<br>
Norbert<br>
<br>
<br>
On 03/24/2012 07:43 PM, Veni Markovski wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAN7p9b6eTej0L6M2j5HScnoSM8Ykhb6DLWOeyZ-aJN3fTQ30VA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">And, also important: the conversation is not about
you, Larry or any of the past, current or future trustees. It is
not an "ad hominem" attack, and I'm surprised you are making
parallels to individuals, serving on the board. The conversation
is about the principles of governing a big non-profit, which can
make a big difference in the Internet world. The world today is
different from the world of the past, and therefore Isoc should
change to reflect the different environment and the new tasks
confronting it. But let's try not to engage in discussions on
individuals and trustees. The main topic, the important one, is
the policy and the structure. <br>
<br>
On Saturday, March 24, 2012, Eric Burger <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:eburger@standardstrack.com">eburger@standardstrack.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> Are there any examples of Trustees that happen to be elected
by Organizations representing Organizations?<br>
> Let's take an extreme example: Organizations elected Jonathan
Zittrain. From Harvard. Harvard is not an Organization member.
Jonathan often focuses a critical eye on those who make money from
the Internet. Like Organization Members. The Organizations are not
exactly electing a puppet that will do their bidding. Likewise,
Organizations elected Larry Lessig. From Harvard. Harvard is not
an Organization member. Larry's raison d'être is the role of
society with respect to technology. Someone who is now working on
reforming the American electorial system to root out commercial
interests in our election process. These are not exactly people
who will be imposing a "heavy influence" of companies on ISOC.<br>
> How about an even more extreme example: Chapters often elect
people that happen to be employed by Organization Members. Does
that mean the Trustee "represents" civil society or their
employer?<br>
> For that matter, what am I? I was appointed by the IAB, am
active in ISOC-DC, and am about to be (again) from an
Organizational Member. Is my employer an evil commercial interest
that wants to use the Internet for nefarious purposes, to wall the
garden to extract monopoly rents, or to silence opposition to my
products? The last time I looked, the product of Georgetown
University is educated and fiercely independent women and men. Do
I represent the IETF? The Chapters? My employer? I would offer the
answer is everyone.<br>
> PLEASE read the election procedures and the bylaws. While
each Trustee may be selected by one the three pillars of ISOC:
individual users (Chapters), commercial (Organizations), and
technology (IETF), they represent all aspects of the Internet.
They positively do not and should not represent the community that
elected them. We are not a membership organization. If we were a
membershijp organziation, it would be appropriate to have
Representatives who represent members. However, we are a cause
based organization. Thus, a Trustee must represent the cause, and
only the cause.<br>
> We certainly value the perspective the Trustee brings to the
Board, and thus we hope to get lots of perspectives from using a
diverse electoral base. That is why we have Trustees selected
by the three pillars of ISOC.<br>
> --<br>
> - Eric<br>
><br>
> On Mar 21, 2012, at 10:53 PM, Veni Markovski wrote:<br>
><br>
> Fred, and all - see comments below.<br>
><br>
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:11 PM, Fred Baker <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:fred@cisco.com">fred@cisco.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> On Mar 21, 2012, at 9:23 PM, Veni Markovski wrote:<br>
>> > 8. ISOC does not represent civil society - for an
independent observer it is an organization, which is heavily
influence by its organizational members (companies), not by
individual members or chapters. Good and not so good.<br>
>> > This point needs clarification - it's good that ISOC
does not represent civil society - there are many, who claim that,
but ISOC is unique as the home of the IETF. But it is not good
that ISOC would not encourage and empower its chapters to
participate at the IGF/ITU meetings, as they are indeed the ones,
representing the civil society in their respected countries.<br>
>><br>
>> Veni:<br>
>><br>
>> I do find myself wondering to what extent you think ISOC
is driven by its organizational members.<br>
><br>
> To a very large extent.<br>
><br>
> <br>
>><br>
>> At my company, I'm among the small set of people that are
involved in and care about ISOC.<br>
><br>
> That's understandable, but it's also something to worry
about, if you think from a certain point of view.<br>
> <br>
>><br>
>> Sally and others ask us questions and give us reports,
but the organizational members don't sit down with ISOC to give it
its priorities.<br>
>><br>
>> What specific influence do you think the organizational
members have on ISOC?<br>
><br>
> The organizational members do not need to sit down with ISOC
to give its priorities - as you point below, they do it through
the Board, which consists of their representatives. Just as an
example - when was the last time the chair of the Board was
someone, elected by the chapters or the members? I don't envy
this, I actually think this is what makes ISOC to be considered
widely as representing the technical community. I remember many
governments talking about ISOC in the context of the IETF, W3C,
but I can't remember one talking about ISOC as representing
netizens, or civil society. That is not a reason for any personal
feelings, like envy. It's a reason for the Board to sit down and
think, "Why is that?", "Is it true?", "What can we do to change
it?". That, of course, if the Board believes that this is a
correct vision of ISOC. And if it thinks it is not, then what
steps would it take to make sure everyone else knows it?<br>
> So, to respond to your question more directly - I don't envy
anything. I don't think the organizational members pay the right
attention to ISOC, otherwise they would have seen that there's
certain value in having ISOC represent the technical community,
and the chapters represent the civil society, the users. But if
they, as you say, have only a small set of people, who care and
are interested in ISOC, then it is really sad. And that makes the
chapters even more important for ISOC, it seems, because they are
the ones, who care and are interested in ISOC in big numbers.<br>
><br>
> best,<br>
> veni<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> BTW, I'm not asking about the board structure. Yes, I
know you have long wanted the chapters to have as many seats on
the board as the organizational members, but in this conversation,
I'm not on that topic - and neither are you. Parallel to your
question about the role and influence of the chapters, I'm asking
about the organizational members themselves, the advisory council,
etc. What, specifically, do you envy?<br>
>><br>
>> Fred<br>
><br>
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><br>
><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Best,<br>
Veni
<p>== Sent from my phone, so any spelling mistakes are caused by
the touchscreen keyboard. That's a nice excuse, isn't it;-)<br>
</p>
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