Eduardo, <br>it's not that simple math. I think you, others, can probably put more items to be judged, but we should not "score" ISOC as good or bad. Few weeks ago I was critical towards the fact that ISOC produces documents, which cannot be used by anyone at the ITU meetings, and some people believed that I have aimed my criticism at Sally, which wasn't the case. <br>
It is very easy for ISOC to become defensive - just say something more or less critical about their policies;-) <br>The reality is they have put together a good group of people - you all remember how enthusiastic many of us were last year at this time, when Markus, Walda, Jacek, to name just 3 of the newcomers, showed up in the mailing list. The announcement of Paul today is also good, and I expect more extremely good people to join in the coming weeks. So, why is ISOC then still using the old policies, which have caused so many issues and problems with the chapters - that's a question I can't give you an answer. I see chapters, which have time and again put behind old history and feelings, in the attempt to reach a consensus-based policy in certain areas, and yet there's always the perception that if the chapters say something, whatever small it is, critical, then they are being personal. That's why today, when I supported Paul, I also said that if people feel there's something wrong, they shouldn't use their time to aim at the wrong goal. The people are really very good. If something is not going well, it's not the people to blame. <br>
<br>Let's think over what we can do for the global Internet, if we feel ISOC is not doing enough, and just do it. <br>By the way, for the record, we have done this several times; most recently at the ITU Plenipotentiary 2010. There was a situation, where ISOC was just missing from the picture, and it was thanks to the chapters, that key positive decisions were achieved. I was expecting that ISOC, given that experience, would be more critical towards themselves, and less critical towards the chapters, but it is obvious I was wrong. This is a fact, for which there are a number of witnesses, so I hope that ISOC will just admit it, and will suggest how exactly they plan on working with the chapters in the coming years, where joint efforts will be needed. Because ISOC, as the representative of the technical community, can bring only one voice to the international arena, while the chapters can bring dozens.<br>
<br>best,<br>veni<br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 6:16 PM, Eduardo Diaz <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:eduardodiazrivera@gmail.com">eduardodiazrivera@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Veni:<div><br></div><div>The score result: 50% for goods and 50% for no goods (approximately). This is like when the weather person does not know if it is going to rain. They usually say that "there is a 50% chance of raining today". With this I mean to say that at this point things can go either way: more no goods or more goods. Again, time will tell. We have to be attentive. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Thanks for the summary. It helps in putting them under a macro perspective.</div><div><br></div><div>-ed<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div class="h5">On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 4:23 PM, Veni Markovski <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:veni@veni.com" target="_blank">veni@veni.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class="h5">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Dear all, <br>
Based on today's discussion, and last few months of talks I have
had with folks from the ISOC chapter community, here is a brief
view on what's happening, what's good, and what - not so good.
Order is random. <br>
<br>
1. ISOC is hiring a lot of people, and the ones that know them
claim they are really very good people. <b>This is good.</b><br>
2. We are being told ISOC is considering changing their by-laws;
we have not been approached with any details for opinion or at
list informed about these changes. <b>Not so good.</b><br>
3. ISOC is suggesting to the chapters to engage in negotiations on
a draft Letter of Affiliation, which was already seriously
criticized by many on and off the list. <b>Not good. </b><br>
4. ISOC is running some projects, of which the chapters are not
being informed, that include following the ITU. We have learned
that funding for these projects does not come (only) from ISOC's
funds. <b>Not good.</b> <br>
5. ISOC is hiring and allocating more people to follow the ITU
developments, who report back to chapters. <b>Good.</b> <br>
6. The chapters continue to feel isolated from the decision-making
at ISOC, even when these decisions concern chapters and chapter
members (just one example - INET-2012). <b>Not good.</b> <br>
7. ISOC is representing the technical community within the IGF/ITU
context. <b>Good</b>. <br>
8. ISOC does not represent civil society - for an independent
observer it is an organization, which is heavily influence by its
organizational members (companies), not by individual members or
chapters. <b>Good and not so good</b>.<br>
This point needs clarification - it's good that ISOC does not
represent civil society - there are many, who claim that, but ISOC
is unique as the home of the IETF. But it is not good that ISOC
would not encourage and empower its chapters to participate at the
IGF/ITU meetings, as they are indeed the ones, representing the
civil society in their respected countries.<br>
<br>
ISOC's policies towards the chapter have not improved
dramatically, as the expectations were last year at this time. <b>Not
good.</b> <br>
<br>
ISOC need to start treating the chapters as equal partners, who
are contributing to ISOC more than they are getting from it. ISOC
could coordinate with chapters its messages, policies and
positions, so that it is not caught in a situation like this
morning. And while we dealt with this one nicely, with many people
writing what they know of Paul, in the coming months such
disruption of normal communication may cause much bigger issues,
than just an exchange of emails within the chapters' list. <br>
The issues that we are going to deal with in the coming two years
are too serious to not pay attention to details like relations
with a substantial part of ISOC, the chapters.<br>
<br>
I'd like to urge ISOC's leadership to not simply <i>address </i>the
issue, but require <b>an immediate - and positive! - change in
the attitude from ISOC HQ towards the chapters</b>. <br>
This is going to be good for the chapters, good for ISOC, and good
for the Internet. <br>
We are facing a crucial time on the international arena, and it is
wise to stay focused on the main topic, rather than waste time on
fixing relationship, which should have been fixed long time ago.
It is still not too late, but if ISOC continues to behave with the
superiority complex towards the chapters, it is not difficult to
envision more issues. <br>
If there is an argument between ISOC and the chapters, the latter
have nothing to lose, but ISOC's legitimacy and confidence might
suffer at time, when they are needed more than before. <br>
<br>
We are looking forward to seeing the next positive steps from
ISOC, and a response to all the good suggestions that came in the
last weeks by many people on this list of how to move forward.<br>
<br>
Best, <br>
Veni<br>
<br>
<br>
</font><br>
On 3/21/2012 14:07, JOHN MORE wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>I join my fellow ISOC-DC activist David Vyorst and others objecting to the sort of pre-judgement evidenced by some in this email thread. Paul is an excellent appointment and is part of ISOC's now working hard to create a partnership with the Chapters.
Paul believes in the Chapters and will be an asset as we move forward.
John More
Sent from my iPhone
</pre>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
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