<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><div>Alejandro, RBL's work pretty well and I still use it today. I can assure you they are not a concrete wall. It is still managed by the Internet community in general, the problem is that Spam is a growing problem everyday. The dynamics of spam has also changed, you can buy a Bot-Net in the market to send unsolicited emails via millions of compromised computers. If you follow the Mariposa Bot-Net story it is quite interesting. I have personally evaluated a number of Anti-Spam clients (network appliances) and I can tell you that they do work pretty well, there is just a lot of crud out there and its growing everyday.</div><div><br></div><div>If you are looking for ISP best practice I suggest you go visit MAAWG www.maawg.org, they have done some really good work bringing the mail provider and sender community together. I used to be a regular in this community but I have other obligations now. You will find Franck Martin there since he is more heavily involved with MAAWG. </div><div><br></div><div>ISOC should form alliance with MAAWG.</div><div><br></div><div>Zaid</div><div><br></div><span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> "Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch" <<a href="mailto:apisan@unam.mx">apisan@unam.mx</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Mon, 30 Jan 2012 02:50:20 +0000<br><span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> Fred Baker <<a href="mailto:fred@cisco.com">fred@cisco.com</a>>, Christian de Larrinaga <<a href="mailto:cdel@firsthand.net">cdel@firsthand.net</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Chapter Delegates <<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org">chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [Chapter-delegates] (no subject)<br></div><div><br></div><div dir="ltr"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252"><style type="text/css" id="owaParaStyle"></style><div style="word-wrap:break-word" fpstyle="1" ocsi="0"><div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Courier New;color: #000000;font-size: 10pt;">
Fred,
<div><br></div><div>thanks for the comment on Yahoo! non-response to some types of abuse.</div><div><br></div><div>The use of Yahoo-groups as well as Google groups for spam is quite amazing and particularly insidious. They are well crafted to be hard to fight. </div><div><br></div><div>Equally complicated to deal with is the situation our colleague <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">Maheeshwara Kirindigoda
</span><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2">from ISOC Sri Lanka describes. <br></font></div><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2">I'd like to add one set of horrible cases: anti-spam. Antispam providers can be as bad as spammers in some senses. Their offerings are designed to please their clients, and have become harder and harder to reach
for those of us who find our email blocked by them as false positives (i.e. non-spam, not even for the chapters mailing lists which are a common problem, but for individual emails.) Gone are the days of the open RBLs where you could check if your servers were
blacklisted and clear their names somehow. They are now a concrete wall.<br></font></div><div><div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="widows:2; text-transform:none; text-indent:0px; border-collapse:separate; font:medium 'Times New Roman'; white-space:normal; orphans:2; letter-spacing:normal; color:rgb(0,0,0); word-spacing:0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:arial; font-size:small"><font size="2" face="Courier New"><br></font></span></span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2">Anyways... not mouch new, esp. for ISOC. We have to continue to act in a complex world in which a global infrastructure is owned and operated largely by private companies who in turn are driven by profit and their
owners/shareholders and subject to national laws and policies. </font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2">Many of the ways to keep them away from extreme evil are regulation and self-regulation. Best practices, alignment of incentives, and citizen and consumer pressure are the most we usually have. </font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2">And that's where we ISOC chapters, with all our members, can contribute. So, if someone can share a code of ISP best practice with Maheeshwara, for example, we will be helping a lot with our limited resources.</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2">To your point, Maheeshwara, may I mention that an ISOC Mexico member, Leon Felipe Sanchez (who is in this list and will be our delegate for the INET) has crafted a law initiative on the rights of Internet users.
There is some debate about the approach, but it has been adopted as his own by a prominent and very Internet savvy and friendly Senator. Maybe Leon Felipe can tell you more about it and whether it applies to your case.</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2">IF, big IF, that case is not just a commercial matter, of course. </font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2">The name-and-shame approach you propose, Maheeshwara, looks to me hard to scale globally but something one can try locally. A chapter that goes this way must be careful not to engage powerful enemies in a battle
that cannot be won, particularly if you start from shaky grounds (an example would be that the provider can say or even prove you have not made your payments in time, or otherwise fail to have strong grounds for your complaint.)</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2">Yours,</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2">Alejandro Pisanty</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2">Yours,</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2">Alejandro Pisanty</font></div><div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="widows:2; text-transform:none; text-indent:0px; border-collapse:separate; font:medium 'Times New Roman'; white-space:normal; orphans:2; letter-spacing:normal; color:rgb(0,0,0); word-spacing:0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:arial; font-size:small"><font size="2" face="Courier New"><br></font></span></span></div><div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="widows:2; text-transform:none; text-indent:0px; border-collapse:separate; font:medium 'Times New Roman'; white-space:normal; orphans:2; letter-spacing:normal; color:rgb(0,0,0); word-spacing:0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:arial; font-size:small"><font size="2" face="Courier New">.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .<br>
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty<br>
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico<br><br>
Tels. +52-(1)-55-5105-6044, +52-(1)-55-5418-3732<br><br>
*Mi blog/My blog: <a href="http://pisanty.blogspot.com">http://pisanty.blogspot.com</a><br>
*LinkedIn profile: <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty">http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty</a><br>
*Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614">http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614</a><br>
*Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/apisanty">http://twitter.com/apisanty</a><br>
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, <a href="http://www.isoc.org">http://www.isoc.org</a><br>
Participa en ICANN, <a href="http://www.icann.org">http://www.icann.org</a><br>
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .</font></span></span></div></div><div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px"><hr tabindex="-1"><div id="divRpF897199" style="direction: ltr; "><font face="Tahoma" size="2" color="#000000"><b>Desde:</b> <a href="mailto:chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org">chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org</a> [<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org">chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org</a>] en nombre de Fred Baker [<a href="mailto:fred@cisco.com">fred@cisco.com</a>]<br><b>Enviado el:</b> domingo, 29 de enero de 2012 20:11<br><b>Hasta:</b> Christian de Larrinaga<br><b>CC:</b> Chapter Delegates<br><b>Asunto:</b> Re: [Chapter-delegates] (no subject)<br></font><br></div><div></div><div><br><div><div>On Jan 29, 2012, at 2:21 AM, Christian de Larrinaga wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">I've seen an increase in the number of hacked yahoo accounts spamming to their address books recently. I've found the best response is to write to the account holder using another email address if you have one to check. Where
that person is not able to take the matter up with Yahoo directly.
<div><br></div><div>There is a form hidden away in the Yahoo site you can report abuse problems. They have responded positively within a few days in all cases I've been involved with.</div></div></blockquote><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>I have yet to get a response of any kind from yahoo on any abuse problems. I periodically get told that someone has added me to a yahoo alias, clearly for the purpose of spam delivery. I reply negatively, and as yahoo suggests, report the abuse. Since
I don't have a yahoo address, there are some parts of the abuse that don't work, but per the web site even with a non-yahoo address I should be able to direct them to not add me to any alias - and that's not working.</div><div><br></div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>Christian<br><div><br><div><div>On 29 Jan 2012, at 08:01, Rudi Vansnick wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Indeed Charles is member of the ISOC Liberia board. I know him very well. His Yahoo account is most probably hacked ... I've received other spammails from his emailaccount. I will inform him .
<div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div> <br><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate; font-family:'Andale Mono'; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px; font-size:medium"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px"><div style="font-family:'Lucida Grande'; font-size:medium; word-wrap:break-word">
Rudi Vansnick</div><div style="font-family:'Lucida Grande'; font-size:medium; word-wrap:break-word"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Courier" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Menlo"><b>——————————————— Internet Society Belgium —————————————————</b></font><br><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Menlo">President - CEO Tel +32/(0)9/329.39.16<br><a href="mailto:rudi.vansnick@isoc.be" target="_blank">rudi.vansnick@isoc.be</a> </font></span></font><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Menlo">Mobile +32/(0)475/28.16.32</font></span></font></div><div style="font-family:'Lucida Grande'; font-size:medium; word-wrap:break-word"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Menlo">Dendermondesteenweg 143 B-9070 Destelbergen BELGIUM</font></span></font></div><div style="font-family:'Lucida Grande'; font-size:medium; word-wrap:break-word"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:13px"><a href="http://www.internetsociety.be/" target="_blank"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Menlo">www.internetsociety.be</font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Menlo">
"The Internet is for everyone"</font></span></font><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Menlo"><br></font></div><div style="font-family:'Lucida Grande'; font-size:medium; word-wrap:break-word"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Menlo">———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————</font></span></font></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></span></div><br><div><div>Op 29-jan-2012, om 01:52 heeft Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch het volgende geschreven:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: medium; font-family: 'Andale Mono'; "><div><div style="direction:ltr; font-family:'Courier New'; color:rgb(0,0,0); font-size:10pt">
Eduardo,
<div><br></div><div>Charles is real. The email in question is presumably not deliberately from him.</div><div><br></div><div>It's a reminder to keep a watchful eye open!!</div><div><br></div><div>And we have to help Charles make sure it's not a bad sign which may lead to blocking his email until his computer is cleared of malware.</div><div><br></div><div>Alejandro Pisanty<br><div><br><div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="widows:2; text-transform:none; text-indent:0px; border-collapse:separate; font:normal normal normal medium/normal 'Times New Roman'; white-space:normal; orphans:2; letter-spacing:normal; word-spacing:0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:arial; font-size:small"><font size="2" face="Courier New">.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .<br>
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty<br>
UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico<br><br>
Tels. +52-(1)-55-5105-6044, +52-(1)-55-5418-3732<br><br>
*Mi blog/My blog:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://pisanty.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://pisanty.blogspot.com</a><br>
*LinkedIn profile:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty</a><br>
*Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614</a><br>
*Twitter:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://twitter.com/apisanty" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/apisanty</a><br>
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.isoc.org/" target="_blank">http://www.isoc.org</a><br>
Participa en ICANN,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.icann.org/" target="_blank">http://www.icann.org</a><br>
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .</font></span></span></div></div><div style="font-family:'Times New Roman'; color:rgb(0,0,0); font-size:16px"><hr tabindex="-1"><div id="divRpF285007" style="direction:ltr"><font face="Tahoma" size="2" color="#000000"><b>Desde:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org">chapter-delegates-bounces@elists.isoc.org</a>]
en nombre de Eduardo Diaz [<a href="mailto:eduardodiazrivera@gmail.com">eduardodiazrivera@gmail.com</a>]<br><b>Enviado el:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>sábado, 28 de enero de 2012 17:32<br><b>Hasta:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Chapter Delegates<br><b>Asunto:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Chapter-delegates] (no subject)<br></font><br></div><div></div><div>Is Charles Gaye for real? Can someone check please!!?
<div><br></div><div>-ed<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 6:57 PM, Joly MacFie<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:joly@punkcast.com" target="_blank">joly@punkcast.com</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0.8ex; border-left-width:1px; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-style:solid; padding-left:1ex">
SPAM!<br><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 4:35 PM, charles Gaye <<a href="mailto:charlesg1075@yahoo.com" target="_blank">charlesg1075@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Chapter-delegates mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">Chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a><br><a href="https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/chapter-delegates" target="_blank">https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/chapter-delegates</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Chapter-delegates mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">Chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a><br><a href="https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/chapter-delegates" target="_blank">https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/chapter-delegates</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Chapter-delegates mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">Chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a><br>
<a href="https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/chapter-delegates">https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/chapter-delegates</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________
Chapter-delegates mailing list
<a href="mailto:Chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org">Chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a>
<a href="https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/chapter-delegates">https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/chapter-delegates</a>
</span></body></html>