<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I have been following this thread, which started with the dangerous proposal from the UN that a governments-only group, whose natural interest is to increase the power of governments, including those that are opposed to ISOC's ideals, start on governance issues. It is clear that ISOC and ISOC chapters must play a strong role in preventing this initiative from freezing the other stakeholders out. It is not a question of ISOC headquarters "ordering", it i a question of a coordinated approach. As for meddling in national affairs, what is ISOC and its chapters supposed to do -- stay silent? Of course, each chapter must operate within the boundaries of law, except that it cannot claim to be speaking as an ISOC chapter if what it says goes against the basic tenets of ISOC (as was the case in the example cited by Veni).<div><br></div><div>Finally, ad hominem statements in a discussion about policy matters are not appropriate, and are counter-productive.</div><div><div><br><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><div>John More</div><div>ISOC-DC</div><div><a href="mailto:morej1@mac.com">morej1@mac.com</a></div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; color: rgb(255, 0, 0); ">SCANNED BY NORTON ANTI-VIRUS.</span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#FF0000" face="Arial" size="2"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 10px; "><br></span></font></div></span></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On Dec 16, 2010, at 8:03 AM, Veni Markovski wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
Alejandro,<br>
A small note in the beginning: The conversation is not about me, or
how I am being placed. This is not the serious conversation.<br>
It is about how ISOC and the chapters are being placed, and how they
could be placed. Now, this is the serious conversation, would you
agree? I hope you would, so that we could remove the personal part
from the discussion, as it is not productive. <br>
<br>
You say that ISOC should not encourage chapters to do anything that
can be construed as medddling in national issues, but at the same
time ISOC often argues with chapters, when they take positions,
which are not being consulted with ISOC in advance. Isn't this
interfering in national issues?<br>
I would agree with you on the "basic requests for chapters", but
then, you may wish to ask why, for example, the Macedonian chapter
is still not recognized - several years into the making - and is it
not because ISOC had issues with their statute, and wanted it
changed, if I remember correctly. And I am sure there is
communication between chapters and ISOC HQ, where chapters have been
told that they should not do something :) <br>
<br>
And last, but not least, to the most important question you ask, "<b>How
would a "you should do this" order from HQ match your concurrent
claim for bottom-up building of ISOC policy?</b>"
<br>
I don't remember using the term "<b>you should do this</b>" with
regards to chapters, it's the other way around - the chapters have
the right, and sometimes the obligation, to tell ISOC HQ "you should
do this", because they are the ones bringing the legitimacy to ISOC
as an international organization. They are the ones, who supported
ISOC in the most difficult times, and the ones, who organized the
massive support for ISOC, which brought to ISOC the management of
the .org TLD. If I am not mistaken, we - as chapters - have
organized several hundred letters of support for ISOC, by academia,
non-profits, and governments, because we believed in what we were
originally told: that PIR funding will be used for public policy
projects, and not to cover the expenses of ISOC. So, ISOC today is a
$ 30 Million per year, because the chapters supported it, believing
not that they will get something, but because we all hoped this will
make the Internet safer, more open, more free and accessible. The
same way the individual members have the right to tell ISOC HQ "you
should do this". And I am not even talking about the organizational
members, because they not only have always had this right, but they
have used it, and ISOC HQ has listened;-) After all, in the time
when ISOC didn't have money, the organizational members were the
only ones, contributing to the budget, and felt that have the right
to say that. <br>
<br>
Last piece of information that may make us think a little bit: why
is that certain countries say that they are fine working with ISOC,
a US-based non-profit organization, subject to the laws of the US,
but the same certain countries would not even mention the name of
the country United States, or any other organizations, working in
the Internet? Do you think that it is because ISOC is neutral, or
because it is safe and harmless, as it is trying to produce
positions, which are acceptable by all? Is it really possible to
have a position, that is accepted by everyone? And these are
rhetorical questions, because I'd like to remind all of you about a
position of ISOC from 2002, which was published in The Economist,
and may give us some food for thoughts on how ISOC's positions have
changed in the last 8 years:<br>
<br>
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<![endif]--><p class="MsoPlainText"><i>"SIR – Your article on censorship of the
Internet in
China referred to an <br>
organisation backed by the Chinese government that calls
itself the <br>
Internet Society of China (“Stop your searching”, September
7th). <br>
I
want to make it clear that this group is in no way affiliated to
the <br>
Internet
Society (ISOC), a global not-for-profit membership organisation
<br>
founded in 1991
to provide leadership in Internet-related standards, <br>
education and policy
development.</i></p><p class="MsoPlainText"><i>The attempt at censorship in China is
diametrically
opposed to our <br>
principles and we would never endorse a pledge to limit the
dissemination <br>
of information nor similar actions that you describe. ISOC's
primary <br>
mission is to expand stable and secure use of the Internet
worldwide
<br>
and to encourage openness, transparency and democratic
processes. <br>
Access to the
Internet is an important ingredient in the free flow of <br>
information necessary
for the long-term welfare of all countries. <br>
Government-imposed limitations on
access to search engines, as<br>
proposed by China, serve neither citizens nor
their governments.</i></p><p class="MsoPlainText"><i>Lynn St Amour<br>
President and CEO<br>
Internet Society<br>
Reston, Virginia"</i></p>
<br>
<br>
Veni<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/15/2010 22:33, Alejandro Pisanty wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:Pine.LNX.4.62.1012160325331.8145@cuarentena.correo.unam.mx" type="cite">Veni,
<br>
<br>
first, you are going to be called to accede to greatness of heart
and forgive the rest of the world for not being you.
<br>
<br>
Some poor souls just operate differently, others are not as
fortunately placed as you are, and yet others do their own thing,
with similar or superior results, quietly, be it out of modesty or
because making some activities loudly public would hamper their
effectiveness. For some, what you are doing would be called
grandstanding, for others dangerous, for others self-defeating. It
depends on so many variables!
<br>
<br>
I do not think that ISOC should encourage chapters to do anything
that can be construed as medddling in national issues, or allow to
create the accusation that the chapter serves a foreign power of
some sort.
<br>
<br>
One of the basic requisites to form a chapter is that the chapter
must be an autonomous, self-standing organization in its country,
legally constituted and registered according to national law as
much as possible for the nature of the organizations, conditions
of the country, and resources available.
<br>
<br>
We do come together as chapters of an international organization
in that we share some basic principles ("the Internet is for
everyone"), information, informed opinion, and other resources.
<br>
<br>
But it defeats ISOC's purposes, and each chapter's purposes, to
act as if there were a party line dictated or even recommended to
the chapters when it comes to being able to cause change in a
country's laws or public policies. That is within the national
remit. Each of us handles it differently.
<br>
<br>
Do you think differently? How would a "you should do this" order
from HQ match your concurrent claim for bottom-up building of ISOC
policy?
<br>
<br>
Yours,
<br>
<br>
Alejandro Pisanty
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
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