<font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif">Dear Rodel,<br></font>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Rodel Urani <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rodel.urani@strategict.pro" target="_blank">rodel.urani@strategict.pro</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="padding-left:10px;padding-right:10px;padding-top:15px" name="Compose message area">
<div style="font:10pt Tahoma"><font face="Segoe UI">Dear Veni, Sivasubramanian
and All,</font></div>
<div style="font:10pt Tahoma"><font face="Segoe UI"></font> </div>
<div style="font:10pt Tahoma"><font face="Segoe UI">The Philippines
Chapter's case.</font></div>
<div style="font:10pt Tahoma"><font face="Segoe UI"></font> </div>
<div style="font:10pt Tahoma">
<div><font face="Segoe UI">Kindest regards,</font></div>
<div><font face="Segoe UI">-Rodel</font><br></div>
<div style="background:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="isolatedn@gmail.com" href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank">Sivasubramanian M</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 16, 2010 5:38 AM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="veni@veni.com" href="mailto:veni@veni.com" target="_blank">Veni
Markovski</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="mailto:sphere-labels@elists.isoc.org
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:sphere-labels@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">sphere-labels@elists.isoc.org</a> ;
<a title="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">Chapter Delegates</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Chapter-delegates] [Sphere-labels] COMMENTS INVITED:
DraftAffiliation Agreement between ISOC Global and ISOC
{Chapter}</div></div></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><br>
</div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif">Dear
Veni,</font>
<div><div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 2:44 AM, Veni Markovski <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:veni@veni.com" target="_blank">veni@veni.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:#ccc 1px solid;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Dear Shiva, and everyone, <br>I don't know
who came with the word "oversight", but this is something that cannot exist,
according to the laws in the European Union (at least). The chapters are
legally independent bodies, founded and performing under the laws of the
country they are situated in. One of the items that has bothered me a lot with
regards to some applications, was that there were requests from ISOC.org to
have the statute of the chapters "reflect" what ISOC.org believed should be
there. In many (all?) cases that's impossible. I would have understand it, if
the chapters were created by ISOC.org, funded by ISOC, and therefor ISOC could
have a say in what they do - the same way ISOC.org decides what the PIR does,
and how it spends its money (to fund ISOC). <br>In the case of the chapters,
this is all different.</font></div></blockquote><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font></div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font> </div>
</div><div class="gmail_quote"><font size="2" face="Segoe UI">That depends on how they
would use "oversight". We have volunteered, that is all that matters.
We did not ask for support especially money from ISOC.org, we were after
the support of our local colleagues and founding members. There
was requirements we have to fulfill.</font></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="padding-left:10px;padding-right:10px;padding-top:15px" name="Compose message area">
<div><div class="gmail_quote"><font size="2" face="Segoe UI">ISOC.org did not tell or
dictate us what to do, including maybe our future activities, </font></div></div></div></blockquote><div> </div><div>If the present trend continues, at a future point there would be a situation where ISOC.org or at least individuals within the ISOC hierarchy would be in a position to directly or indirectly tell the Chapters what to do and what not to do and control chapters.</div>
<div><br></div><div>We don't exactly have a situation now, but there are instances that have been quite disturbing. I sent a mail message soon after I-Net Delhi (not to the list, but to a random shortlist of Chapter Delegates, privately. If you wish to see that message, please mail me and I will forward you that message). In brief, it was an instance where Chapters present were ignored by some of the members of the Staff who organized a meeting of Indian Internet businessmen and representatives from Government. There was also an earlier complaint about I-Net Africa not involving local chapters. There were other instances, to my knowledge, of ISOC Global organizing local events or interacting with a certain Government or local 0rganizations without consulting or involving the local chapters. If this trend extends further, at some future point of time, we may have staff members in the Regional Bureau or Chapter Support who may lose sight of the fact that Chapters aren't exactly beneath the Central structure.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Sivasubramanian M</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="padding-left:10px;padding-right:10px;padding-top:15px" name="Compose message area">
<div><div class="gmail_quote"><font size="2" face="Segoe UI">however
we see and understood what are we heading into. It is also unfair to
say, since Chapter are solely a legal entity in their own countries, that we can
do anything including what is not aligned to the policies in place by ISOC.org
in support for the Chapters.</font></div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font size="2" face="Segoe UI">What I understand and like
it is that there is flexibility as to how ISOC.org and Chapters do their
own job, whether in support of the other, their own interests and
vice versa. </font></div><div>
<div class="gmail_quote"> </div>
<blockquote style="border-left:#ccc 1px solid;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><b>ISOC.org is not the chapters' hat, or
their umbrella; quite the opposite - the chapters are the umbrella of ISOC
</b>for they bring ISOC its legitimacy, and not the other way around.
<br></font></div></blockquote>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">>+1. Well emphasized. Thanks Veni.</div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font> </div>
</div><div class="gmail_quote"><font size="2" face="Segoe UI">Neither ISOC.org is the
Chapter's hat nor Chapters are the umbrella of
ISOC.org are written in our by-laws (at least in the
Philippines). I do not think it is worth debating particularly this
issue. When we applied and become accredited Chapter of ISOC.org we
agreed on some parameters and that is still very clearly stated in our by-laws,
again in our own case. Like for instance in the Philippines,
the article I states that ISOC Philippines hereafter
referred to as the "Chapter" of the Internet Society hereafter referred to
as the "Association". Unless yours are different.</font></div><div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font face="Segoe UI">
<div class="gmail_quote"><font size="2"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="border-left:#ccc 1px solid;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">I don't believe that anyone seriously, or
even jokingly, would suggest that the chapters should be less independent.
However, having said that, <b>if people feel this is the case, please, address
it immediately in </b>straight words right now, on these lists, and make sure
your voice is being heard. </font></div><font face="Helvetica"></font></blockquote></font></div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font> </div>
</div><div class="gmail_quote"><font size="2" face="Segoe UI">This is not the
case.</font></div><div><div></div><div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="border-left:#ccc 1px solid;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div><font face="Helvetica"></font> </div>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><br><br><font face="Helvetica">best,<br><font color="#888888">veni
</font></font><br></div></blockquote>
<blockquote style="border-left:#ccc 1px solid;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<div></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Segoe UI"></font><br>On 7/1/2010 13:03,
Sivasubramanian M wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif">Dear
Anupam,</font>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif">Two years ago, when the
Sphere project was launched, I was the one who proposed the idea of
evaluating Chapters, I was the one who proposed the idea of devising systems
to withdraw the charters in cases where a chapter has deviated from Isoc's
mission and goals. ( see slides 10 - 12 )</font></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif">Yesterday's comments on
the draft affiliation document also come from me. These comments are written
based on observations and first hand experiences and based on the
understanding that a lot of subjectivity could occur in the process of
Chapter oversight.</font></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif">Isoc as an organization
needs a system by which it aligns Chapters to its mission and programs, but
plenty of caution is needed while deciding systems for Chapter oversight.
For various reasons I strongly feel that Chapter oversight should be by a
council of chapters and not by staff. This is to ensure that the oversight
process does not go wrong to pave way for the disaffiliation of older
chapters with knowledgeable community members. </font></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif">New Chapters are more
easily managed. In a scenario where there are Chapters who do not ask
questions and Individual members who don't even have a functional mailing
list, the policy and positions would come from a small of group of
individuals while the world's impression is that the policy evolved from a
bottom up process.</font></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif">ICANN has a
participative process to improve Institutional Confidence and we also need
to internally initiate such an exercise to make the Isoc process more
participative. </font><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">It is far more
important to ensure a participative structure in Isoc
Governance. </span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">The first step
would be to ensure that Chapters remain strong and independent.</span></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif">The discussion on the
blog is closed so there would no longer be any discussion on these comments
on the Sphere group. I hope we have a constructive discussion on this topic
in the Chapter Delegates list.</font></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif">Thank you</font></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif">Sivasubramanian
M</font></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div>
<div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font>
<div><font color="#333333" face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 3:02 PM, anupam agrawal <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:agrawal_anupam@hotmail.com" target="_blank">agrawal_anupam@hotmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div>Hi Shiva,<br> <br>Glad to receive your comments. Please find my
responses:<br> <br>I think there is absolute certainity that there
are two parties otherwise what an agreement whether affiliation or not is
about. Even in marriages there are two parties called Husband
& Wife who take vows which is a kind of agreement. Does this ritual
leave anyone outside or decides who is on top or to the contrary is a
way to to align themselves for a common cause. I feel this affiliation
agreement is a step to tie the knots of ISOC Global and ISOC Chapters
to be aligned for the common cause which is the reason of existence
for both ISOC Global & ISOC Chapters. I feel we should
be less fuzzy on the edges so that the distance to the core is fast
covered. So when you say outside I find it hard to understand outside of
what? There are chapter representatives on the board to drive
the issues and regional bureaus to drive the things at
operational level.<br> <br> In another point of yours over
stipulation that the performance standards are already there in some form
or other which is correct but this agreement tries to consolidate all
of them together. I agree to an extent that chapters should be notified in
decisions which happens with respect to community grants
or travel fellowhips but two things ; What will chapter do with
that notification and secondly how are the chapters positioned to
comment on somebody's goodwill? I think the way out can be that
there has to be 1 mandatory project for all chapters. But with fund
restriction and taking care of the scenarion that one individual member
has a good project but is not aligned with the local chapter , I feel for
greater good the situation can continue. Besides, I have felt while
applying for the community grant that the scope is so wide that at times
it is difficult to focus on the area. There has to be some way
wherein the focus is given to a particular theme for a year or
more funding should be brought in as this is a sure shot way of chapter
making an impact at local level.<br> <br>As far as policy positions
are concerned , I completely agree that ISOC Global when taking a view for
a country should initiate discussion with the chapter. This will help to
keep everybody on the same page.<br> <br>This agreement in a
way puts a process around which gnerates a dashboard stating
whether a chapter has worked or not. No staff decides but the
process itself says what has been achieved or not and where
the corrective actions are required. Now it has been endeavor of the task
force to remove the subjectivity of the goals and assign numbers so that
action taken turns the dashboard green. If you feel any performance
standard is without numbers or has a subjectivity attached, please bring
up specifically and that should be discussed / changed.<br> <br>I
feel 18 months is too long and it should be shortened and instead of that
there can be a oversight committee.<br> <br>INstead of thinking it as
a review by ISOC Global , I would like to take it as a Self Review. I
would like to know scenario/s wherein you feel that inspite of Chapters
having achieved the minimum standards, there can be intrusion.
<br> <br>Let's discuss on them and thrash it out. That's the purpose
of this list I believe.<br> <br>Regards<br>Anupam
Agrawal<br>Chair<br>Kolkata Chapter<br>Cell : 990 399 2838<br><br><br>
<hr>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><br></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><br></div></div></div>
<p>
</p><hr>
<p></p>_______________________________________________<br>Chapter-delegates
mailing
list<br><a href="mailto:Chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org" target="_blank">Chapter-delegates@elists.isoc.org</a><br><a href="https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/chapter-delegates" target="_blank">https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/chapter-delegates</a><br>
<p></p></div>
</blockquote></div><br>